Matrix Reloaded - SPOILERS Included!

[Perris Calderon]

Originally posted by Teddy
"I think it's pretty clear neo failed this test of charachter"

Surely the failing would have been if he had WANTED to kiss her. He clearly didnt want to but did it because he HAD to.

If he had lusted after this perhphone (??) and wanted her then that WOULD have been a failure. He did what he thought was necessary - he 'kissed' her to save humanity...to save Trinity.

If he had refused the 'kiss' he may never have found the KeyMaker and both himself, Trinity and the world would have died. What would be the point of that!!!!!? Let that happen!? NO! He could not know for SURE that there was another way to get to the KeyMaker - this was an opportunity he could not turn down (i dont mean the kiss! I mean quick access to the man they absolutely HAD to find).

let me just address these last points, and then try my best to stay out till part three.

first

this program wanted a "real...emotion filled kiss"...she wants to feel what trinity feels

and neo gives this to her!!!

sorry

of you are in love, you cannot give that feeling away pall mall, willy nilly.

an emotion filled kiss to a stranger!!!...

and the women he has told he loved is looking looking on!!!!!.

now, if you think he passed this test, then you are right, and neo can still be the savior.

but if you think he failed this test, he cannot be the savior.

I obviously think this is a clear failure, and I believe any justification yanyone can come up with otherwise is convienient

now this;

If he had refused the 'kiss' he may never have found the KeyMaker

plenty of other ways to get the keymaker, this kiss was jsut one way...and plenty of ways to accomplish the goal without the keymaker.

the keymaker is part of the matixes solution don't forget

but in ending, and staying out from here, I will tell you all this;

I believe as you all believe, that I am wrong.

I believe that this flick will keep neo as the one.

and in this, this flick is in my opinion flawed.

for this one scene?

no

but this scene makes my point for me.

do any of you agree?

I don't think so.

so I am left alone, thinking this movie could have and should have been more then it is.

chow

(for now)

 

[gonaads]

I think your conclusion is convienient.

I put this to you... If you are Neo (heaven help us ) and Persephone asks this of you in order to get the Keymaker and save humanity and Trinity... What would YOU do???

Would you say NO and... as you sooooo constantly put it not fail her (Trinity), or do the RIGHT thing and save everyone.

Now remember, a TRUE HERO is selfless in all reguards. ALL REGUARDS.

Sooooooo, Dealer... what would YOU do???? Hmmmmmmm???


And NO... there are no other choices. NO other way(s).

TO KISS or NOT TO KISS, THAT is the question.

 

[Teddy]

"plenty of other ways to get the keymaker"

How would he know that? More importantly, how do YOU know that there were plenty of other ways to get him?! You really are struggling with your point now!! Afterall, Neo, Trinity and Morpheous were leaving the building without him until this lady stepped in. She was their way in.

He could not turn down such a straight forward route to the keymaker in the hope that there were "plenty of other ways to get the keymaker". He kissed her in the knowledge that this could be he ONLY way to the him.

Tell me what he would have done to get to this keymaker had he chosen against kissing her?! Please enlighten us! If there were other possible ways dont you think Trinity would have suggested something!!

Im hoping that you are just struggling to get your ideas across in words because i've never heard such nonsense!

 

[Perris Calderon]

ha

first you told me to stop saying the same thing, and maDe me feel guilty and all, and now you keep asking me to come back and sAy the same things.

t's ok with me, but don't yell at me anymore, K?

here I go;

;...put this to you... If you are Neo (heaven help us ) and Persephone asks this of you in order to get the Keymaker and save humanity and Trinity... What would YOU do???

there is not a chance on this planet, that this situation could have invoked any kind of emotion from me...OR FROM ANYBODY THAT IS IN LOVE

sorry

neo clearly fails this test of charachter.

Now remember, a TRUE HERO is selfless in all reguards. ALL REGUARDS.

correct, why are you making my point for me?

And NO... there are no other choices. NO other way(s).

TO KISS or NOT TO KISS, THAT is the question.

totally untrue statement...neo has the power he has because he makes his own rules here in the matrix, he creates his own virtuality,

and thus he wins...sometimes he doesn't realize that the only way he wins is when he creates his own virtualityit, and that's when he fails.

TO KISS or NOT TO KISS, THAT is the question.

no, that's the question the matrix poses, it's not the answer to the question

in this situtation, the easy way was to just lala with Persephone

this emotion program tells the only way to get to the keymaker from her

this is in every single regard, a matrix driven choice that is put to neo...clearly a matrix drivem choice...

are you fforgetting that neo makes his own rules in the realm of the matrix????

that's how he wins???

why are you forgetting that this is the realm of the matrix????

plenty of other ways to get the keymaker"

How would he know that?

he wouldn't know it, he would realize it, like all saviors faced with challenges from the devil...this is the very test...you pass or you fail

You really are struggling with your point now!!

no, you are

Tell me what he would have done to get to this keymaker had he chosen against kissing her?!

this question is too easy to answer.

HE COULD BEAT THE **** OUT PERSOPHENE...THIS IS OBVIOUS!!!

he could zap his hand inside of her and suck it out.

he could do anything the writer comes up with.

but he cannot fail this test of charachter

Im hoping that you are just struggling to get your ideas across in words because i've never heard such nonsense!

THIS IS A MOVIE...IT'S ALL NONSENSE

 

[gonaads]

Beat the crap out of her!!! Oooooh now there is a real character winner there.

And don't put this on the writer, that's lame.

You are avoiding the question... back up your hypothosis. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

STOP REHASHING YOUR SPEECHES.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN THAT SITUATION?

 

[Perris Calderon]

sorryy gonaads, you can't yell your way into being right.

I already told you, you get it out of the program called Persephone, and there are a gazillion ways of doing it besides kissing her.

of course it's on the writer, so don't say it's not...this is my point...jeeze

and this is a simple task,simple writing, so get over it

how easy is this?

just off the very top of my head, as I said before, you just stick your hand inside of the program called Persephone, and you extract the information.

cheeshs, that was without any work whatsoever

 

[gonaads]

I am not trying to be right... I just wanted to know what you would do if you were set in that situation. That's all.

Now we don't know if Neo can extract info from a program that way... he can manipulate the matrix but unknow of the programs running on it. Otherwise he could have stuck his hand in the Oracle or the Architect and gottin all the answers he needed or wanted.

 

[Perris Calderon]

gonaads, really, I can't say how simple this is.

first, it's impossible to get out of a man in love what Persephone asks for...

yet she gets it from neo!!!

this is a failure of charachter, and there really isn't any other way I can think of to look at this scene

what would I do you want to hang your argument on. I told you already, I'd do whatever the writer comes up with that does not involve a failure of charachter.

now, simple enough, as I said, off the top of my head, I would just walk over to her and extract the information...I am neo, and I can do all sorts of stuff like this

but if I just lala with her, instead of finding another way, I have sceded to the matrix's will and design...as of course we see in the next scene.

 

[gonaads]

Isn't fun to argue? Soooooo many different versions.

But...

He did not have sexual relations with that woman... errrrrr... Program.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Originally posted by gonaads


Isn't fun to argue? Soooooo many different versions.

But...

He did not have sexual relations with that woman... errrrrr... Program.

who likes a good argument more then I do?

and you missed the point of the kiss...she was ABSOLUTELY not satisfied with a kiss, she would only be satisfied with a true emotion.

 

[Sazar]

dictionary definition of HERO

1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.



no where did I notice anything that said this is NOT the definition of a hero since dealer did not say it was

 

[gonaads]

Originally posted by dealer
who likes a good argument more then I do?

and you missed the point of the kiss...she was ABSOLUTELY not satisfied with a kiss, she would only be satisfied with a true emotion.

I would have gave her MORE.

 

[gonaads]

Originally posted by Sazar
dictionary definition of HERO

1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.



no where did I notice anything that said this is NOT the definition of a hero since dealer did not say it was

Ooops

 

[gonaads]

Dealer sets a standard that is soooo high that there will never be a Savior of mankind.

Even Jusus Christ had his momemt. His "hissy fit" in the Temple with the Tax Collectors. And so what that it was a Temple. That did not hive him the right to do what he did. And don't say he is/was the Son of God and he can do what he wants, because of that he should have been more of a roll model. Sheesh... fits of violence, wow.

And if you go with, well he can do what he wants, then Neo can also. Since Neo can manipulate the Matrix any way he wants. He pretty much has absolute power in the Matrix. Sooooooo...

Sooo they both have one strike against each of them.

 

[Geffy]

why would anyone want to save mankind, are we really anything worth saving

 

[Khayman]

I'm pretty sure this thread isn't worth saving.....

 

[sboulema]

lol

 

[Perris Calderon]

no where did I notice anything that said this is NOT the definition of a hero since dealer did not say it was

my gawd, you guys are really stretching


I didn't see anywhere near this thread that dealer said neo wasn't a hero, nor did I say that he is not a savior, I said he is not the savior of mankind

but you guys keep looking for your little loopholes if you want.

neo is not the savior of man...though he is the one that the computer thought up, he's not strong enough to overcome simple hurdles...he remains a puppet of the matrix

and there, I said it again

Dealer sets a standard that is soooo high that there will never be a Savior of mankind.

oh yea, so very high...give me a beak

Even Jesus Christ had his momemt. His "hissy fit" in the Temple with the Tax Collectors.

you think these two events are similar failures of charachter?

not...this is the biggest stretch I've seen yet

Even Jesus Christ

gonaads, neo is not being set up as anything but the christ

so ask this simple question

really simple

if you think christ would have done the bidding in this fashion of this little program, then you are right and neo can be the savior

but if you think christ would have refused this test from the devil, then neo cannot be the savior.

pretty simple

so, I guess my standard for the christ is higher then yours.

I accept this.

in my book, there is not a chance in this universe that christ would have given what this little program wanted from him

sorry...

man, you guys will come up with anything to let kianu be your savior....I'm surprised at you.

if this screenplay is good writing, then kianu failed a test of charachter, and cannot be the savior of mankind, and there will be a twist in the last episode to make someone else the savior

as far as I can see, this is the only reason to put this scene into this movie

ok, you guys take the last shot...you've heard what I've had to say, and I'll say one more time, I believe with all of you, that I am wrong, and in the end, this movie will let neo be our savior...so carry on

try not ot make your next effort as big of a stretch as these last few posts of yours have been pretty thin

 

[sboulema]

hhahha this thread will go one forever *sigh*

 

[Geffy]

*me abandons thread