just to start some trouble (*warning*politics)

[ThePatriot]

Here is a graphic which is probably the best evidence that I've seen so far that...1.The Electoral College(in contrast to my recent beliefs) does actually work...and 2.The exit polls could have been right and wrong at the same time, IMO. Point one should be self-explanatory. Bush's overall county win coverage far outnumbered the Kerry wins, even though Kerry got HUGE numbers in large population centers. The exit polls are primarily taken in said large population centers and it should be obvious why they showed Kerry leading, and were so wrong in predicting the outcome.

 

[VenomXt]

its over man.. if we are still here as a country in 4 years (meaning not a big hole in the ground) then we get another chance.

I love America. and maybe one day we will acually have a seperation of church and state.

 

[rotjong]

They didn't leave the party; the party left them.

I absolutely agree to this... and guess who pretty much made this statement many years ago when he switched from the Democratic party to the Republican party? A man who became known as President Ronald Reagan.

Both parties have shifted and changed in various ways. Right now, however, the Democrats have lost a solid foundation to build on. Their leadership is lacking, IMO. Bill Clinton, however much people may hate him, infused the Democratic party with new focus and energy and they've so quickly lost it since he left office. They need to get it back and then promote a solid and strong candidate for the next election. If they do not do this... well, then they deserve what they get... another loss.

rotjong

 

[Perris Calderon]

"field a strong candidate"

john Kerry was an incredibly strong candidate...the republican wealthy owned mass media spin machine assassinated his character...they kept repeating the Bush campaign claims, yet they repeated the Kerry response to those claims Hardly at all

for instance, the "flip flop" criticism

false claims and excellent marketing by the Bush campaign and the wealthy owned media machine

when it was in fact Bush that flip flopped...his promises and policies...juat about everything he claimed were not only flip flops, but deceptions to boot

Kerry recognized the flip flops of this administration and didn't go along with them...the mass media spin machine found a way to actually convince the public that Kerry flip flops more then Bush...very affective marketing to be sure

a perfect example...Bush would say Kerry flip flopped on the war, when he did not...kerry approved the war as a last resort...this was the Bush promise, and there is not one person in this gods country that would call the invasion of Iraq a "last resort"...republicans don't care about promises broken if it's a republican that breaks the promise...that is clear

for instance...kerry approved money for the troops, but when he found out Bush was trying to get no bid contracts so his buddies big business concerns, and steal money from our boys and girls in the field with these no bid contracts Kerry recognized the thievery and declined...excellant insight on Kerry's part

as opposed to the wonderful and accurate insight of the man in office...yet he remains

for instance, this president makes believe he's fighting terrorism, when by every single measure, terrorism has grown and become stronger...due to the policies of this administration...how this administration managed to run on a record of defending America when in fact anyone else would have defended her better is a mystery that will one day be solved

Kerry was an excellent choice

news flash;

the media would have assassinated any candidate, and it is so power full, those that listen to it would be making the same statements today no matter who the candidate for the democratic party were.

for instance, when they thought it was dean that would be candidate, they were assassinating his charachter...and so down the line till they found out who the real candidate was to be

this is fine for a political campaign...what's alarming is that so many people...people who's intelligence I otherwise respect...these people actually fall for whatever the mass media spin machine has to say

but back on track

the exit polls are never wrong, they have never been wrong...how interesting that they are wrong in this election...how interesting indeed

especially if what xie is correct;

I have found it interesting that the largest difference between exit polls and the "real total" is that most were right on except ... you guessed it .. states using electronic voting machines (ie. Diebold, ect.) with no paper (audit) trail. Oh and oddly most of this happend in .. you guessed it .. "swing states".

at the very least, the fact that the exit polls are wrong should raise alarm...this is the very least

yet where is the alarm?...does anyone think that if this happened in the reverse for Kerry rather then Bush that there wouldn't be alarm raised?

we live in troublesome times.

 

[Geffy]

take a read of this, its similar, I think by the same person
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm

the scariest part being the bit around the line
Harris sat up a bit straighter, smiled, and said, "We just edited an election, and it took us 90 seconds."

 

[Xie]

yet where is the alarm?...does anyone think that if this happened in the reverse for Kerry rather then Bush that therer wouldn't be alarm raised?

we live in troublesome times.

Indeed. I don't understand how just because Bush won we are suppose to just except it even if evidence points the other way. This is not a game, this effects our country in a big way .. I don't think alot of Bush people understand this. I think this only widens the gap starting off another 4 years. My only hope is the truth comes out and people start to notice how dirty this administration is before it's to late.

*edit* - It's also kind of ironic we are pushing elections down the throats of Afghanistan and Iraq but we can't be 100% sure our own elections are legit.

 

[Petros]

And what about Zogby saying the exit polls were wrong?

 

[Zarband]

Military....

Hey guys. Pretty new around here, and just noticed an interesting topic. I won't go so far into ignorance as to tell you that one cadidate was better than the other but I will say that Bush has two things going for him, at least from the perspective of a military member. One, he takes care of his military, in regards to benefits and pay. Two, he *does* what he *says* he's gonna do, which is important from my point of view, it helps me to plan around my deployments, so that I can plan better for my family and their future.
Anyway, i hope to see you guys around more often, just signed up myself to this thing you call OSNN. I like what you've done with the place though ::looks around room:: looks great, take care all

 

[Geffy]

Zarband, welcome to OSNN

I thought GWB cut military pay??

 

[Zarband]

Naah buddy, GWB started the cost of living pay raise back i think in 01, raise every year of i think 3 to 6% happens around the 1st of the year give or take, then also we've gotten an additional raise every year around the middle of the year, every year he's been in office. Haha, but please don't let that make you think we make a lot of money, the reason he's been doing that and still is was because many lower ranking military members were (and are still) living below the national poverty level.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome, it's much appreciated

 

[Perris Calderon]

welcome to this great board!

sorry to criticize your first post...but it is a political discussion and we all have strong opinions..me especially...fasten seat belts please;

he *does* what he *says* he's gonna do

no, he doesn't...he told us this wasn't about regime change, this was about weapons of mass destruction...it was not about weapons of mass destruction and he was told before the war that he was misrepresenting and exaggerating the information he used to make his case

he told us the war would be a last resort when all else failed...not one person would say that promise was honored

he told us he would fight terrorism, yet he took the fight from terrorism...this is according to his own aids

he told us fighting in Iraq would somehow help the fight against terrorism

his most trusted aids and experts warned him that fighting in Iraq would help the terrorists and exacerbate the fight...he didn't care about that advice...they were right.

he told us he would bring integrity to the office of the presidency, instead he secretly diverted funds from the fight on terrorism, he's eliminated oversight of anything military...great integrity let me tell you.

he told us Iraq was about the attack on 9/11...his aids told him the two were mutually exclusive...he didn't care

he told us he would rid Iraq of terrorists before we invaded...Iraq WAS rid of terrorists now it abounds with terrorists and terrorist activity

I can find almost nothing this president has said that he has done

 

[xsivforce]

:snack:

 

[Perris Calderon]

clicky

clicky

bush flip floped as far as cutting military pay

 

[Zarband]

I won't tell you that you're wrong because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I will say that I don't agree. Firstly, just because he ousted Saddam and didn't find WMD's doesn't mean that we went in there specifically for Saddam.
Much of what I've overhead people saying is that they wouldn't have minded going into Iraq simply to get Saddam out of there, and to lower oil prices if only GWB had been honest about it. I'd have to say that's my position too, if you're telling me that there were no terrorists in Iraq, then I'd ask you to talk to an Iraqi Kurdish muslim and they'd probably have to disagree with you. My point is, that just because things didn't turn out the way it was planned doesn't mean it was all a lie. I there have been many mistakes during his first four years as president, and there are probably many more to come in the next four, but that would be true for any president, Kerry included. Example: CNN proclaims Clinton and "America's Favorite Democrat" even though the american people tried to impeach him after he lied into the faces of every american that would listen. The point is that hindsight is 20/20, and when not in the position of actually *being* the president it is very easy indeed to point the finger and to judge. My personal opinion goes no farther than to say that the majority of the american people wanted BWB as their president for the next four years, and I'll stand behind him, and protect those that call themselves americans. Because thats my job.

 

[Zarband]

Haha good reference Perris. although once again, not all the facts are known. The troops in Iraq are still making more money today than I made during my deployment to the middle east 1 month after 9/11. So, glass half empty or half full?

 

[Zarband]

By the way, here comes a total nonsequitor to this thread but I'm totally stuck on screen 18 in the this is not pr0n riddle

 

[Geffy]

HSo, glass half empty or half full?

neither, the glass is simply twice as large as it should be to contain the water within, or its empty cause I would have gone and drunk it

 

[Zarband]

hmmm, i seem to be a little outgunned here, haha only people talking are the "super-moderators" Well, know when to walk away right?

 

[ThePatriot]

I won't tell you that you're wrong because everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I will say that I don't agree. Firstly, just because he ousted Saddam and didn't find WMD's doesn't mean that we went in there specifically for Saddam.
Much of what I've overhead people saying is that they wouldn't have minded going into Iraq simply to get Saddam out of there, and to lower oil prices if only GWB had been honest about it. I'd have to say that's my position too, if you're telling me that there were no terrorists in Iraq, then I'd ask you to talk to an Iraqi Kurdish muslim and they'd probably have to disagree with you. My point is, that just because things didn't turn out the way it was planned doesn't mean it was all a lie. I there have been many mistakes during his first four years as president, and there are probably many more to come in the next four, but that would be true for any president, Kerry included. Example: CNN proclaims Clinton and "America's Favorite Democrat" even though the american people tried to impeach him after he lied into the faces of every american that would listen. The point is that hindsight is 20/20, and when not in the position of actually *being* the president it is very easy indeed to point the finger and to judge. My personal opinion goes no farther than to say that the majority of the american people wanted BWB as their president for the next four years, and I'll stand behind him, and protect those that call themselves americans. Because thats my job.

Welcome to the board! Just to bring you up to speed...you have just covered every topic Unwonted and I have battled perris on in the last few weeks!
Perris, I love ya man, but don't you hear that fat lady singing? (no offense to the weight-challenged )

 

[Petros]

The threads in question are here and here if you want to check them out.

By the by, perris, the story you posted to start this thread cited this page as a source for its arguments. That page has now been corrected to say this:

CLARIFICATION: THIS REPORT HAS BEEN LARGELY DEBUNKED BY A DETAILED ANALYSIS RAW STORY COMMISSIONED BY A FORMER MIT PROFESSOR, USING A LARGER SAMPLE AND WITH AN EXACT UNDERSTANDING OF ALL STATES USING ELECTRONIC VOTING. PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK TO THE UPDATED STORY.

This article has been removed by the editors. Given a professional statistical analysis which reached an opposing conclusion, we felt it was too misleading to leave up; the above linked article clarifies the information and story in question.

Corrected story here. The larger-sampled exit polls actually showed higher gains for Bush. In the interest of truthfulness, the article has been corrected to reflect the more in-depth research.