Bush or Kerry?

Sazar said:
colin powell's credibility is unfortunately shot... I like him and he is one of the more competent people in the bush administration...

however his powerpoint presentation to the UN security council leaves a very bad taste in the mouth still...

that he has apologized for it shows the mans humility and honesty and I have a lot of respect for that...

Part of the problem, the Bush admin has used him. And he's time and again allowed this to be done. I can understand he was in the military, I can understand about the chain of command; but he's now a leader in the civillian government who holds authority over the military. As secretary of state, he's got obligations and responsibilities of the office, which I would contend are first to the American people, aka We the people, and not first and foremost to the president himself. There are times, I would contend at least, where it would not be wrong for a political leader (secretary of state for instance) to come out as a matter of conscience and say/do what they believe to be right, for the good of the countries citizens, themselves.

I do remember a quote from him, to the effect "I'm not going to let them bastards run me from office, but in turn...he's arguably been used. I can understand where he came from, and respect "the soldier in him" if you will. It is no doubt a part of who he is as a person. I had hoped however, that at some point in time, he'd realize that as a leader in the Executive branch (aka the civillian government), he doesn't have to allow certain things to be done wrt himself. It would be OK to stand up, speak out against certain things, if his conscience would so dictate...
 
Problem is once a soldier always a soldier. And who is the highest ranking commander, the President of course. So going by this it's rather easy to see why he has gone with the flow as it's what has been engrained in him, what he's been trained to do .. follow orders. I for one can't really blame him.
 
If Kerry gets elected, I predict there will be an assasination attempt on him with in six months. And it will be from one of the Vietnam Vets he Stabbed in the back. I can't believe the guy talks about military strength and how is he is for it. Especially when he was to much of a coward to stay a term in vietnam, wound himself to get out, nominate himself to get the purple heart (when he didn't deserve it, the only reason he wanted it is because he knew with it he can get out), Have meeting with the vietnemese president, speak out against the military, call the military personel cowards and traders, speak out against the government. The guy should be dead or in prison. he is a trader, atleast bush did serve his whole enlistment, even if it was the national guard.

Do you people know that there is a statue of Kerry in Veitnam in their war museum ?? As well as pics of him and the Veitnamese president he became buddy buddy with after he went awol ?? He is a war hero over there, he is a trader and coward over here.

There is no way someone in there right mind would vote for someone who does that to the country. Of course he has all those lawyers lined up to recount votes, he will make what happen with Gore look like a joke. He knows he won't win, him and his Ambulance chaser running mate haven't even resigned as senetors yet, I wonder why that is ??? Maybe because they know they won't win ?? he's such a putts ...
 
Johnny said:
If Kerry gets elected, I predict there will be an assasination attempt on him with in six months. And it will be from one of the Vietnam Vets he Stabbed in the back. I can't believe the guy talks about military strength and how is he is for it. Especially when he was to much of a coward to stay a term in vietnam, wound himself to get out, nominate himself to get the purple heart (when he didn't deserve it, the only reason he wanted it is because he knew with it he can get out), Have meeting with the vietnemese president, speak out against the military, call the military personel cowards and traders, speak out against the government. The guy should be dead or in prison. he is a trader, atleast bush did serve his whole enlistment, even if it was the national guard.

Do you people know that there is a statue of Kerry in Veitnam in their war museum ?? As well as pics of him and the Veitnamese president he became buddy buddy with after he went awol ?? He is a war hero over there, he is a trader and coward over here.

There is no way someone in there right mind would vote for someone who does that to the country. Of course he has all those lawyers lined up to recount votes, he will make what happen with Gore look like a joke. He knows he won't win, him and his Ambulance chaser running mate haven't even resigned as senetors yet, I wonder why that is ??? Maybe because they know they won't win ?? he's such a putts ...

how did kerry stab the vets in the back?

he was hardly the only vet who raised his voice against the war and he was far from incorrect in pointing out things that were taking place that were wrong...

we ALL know that many things took place in vietnam that were blatantly wrong and we should never have been there in the first place...

btw you do know kerry served TWO tours right? this whole b.s. about him being a coward and getting out is lovely spin but sort of makes very little sense when you consider he went back to serve another tour...

bush's service == 2/3rds of his alloted time... he never served his full allotment...

however he served and was discharged honorably and there is not much else to be said... he obviously fulfilled his requirements... as did kerry since he too was honorably discharged...

it is ridiculous that people who have never served in combat in vietnam make accusations such as this... everyone is entitled to their opinion but its far-fetched when someone holds bush's record v/s kerry's and proclaims bush to be the better man wrt serving his country... thats just such utter tripe...

kerry went awol? links please because this is the first i have heard of it...

---

btw if bush is elected he might also face the same repurcussions you suggest kerry will face don't you think?

the iraq vets and civilians serving the army who are captured are hardly going to be happy @ their treatment due to abu ghraib and gitmo don't you think? so it is logical to assume that rumsfeld and bush should watch out per your insinuation right?

---

concerning the lawyers... both teams have lawyers lined up... its not just kerry... and its mainly because of the supreme court of florida's decision...

their decision in 2000 directly leads into the armies of lawyers standing @ the ready because their dumbass reasoning for discontinuing the recount basically lets a myriad of lawsuits to be applied...

in law one thing is important above all.... precedence... and thanks to the florida supreme court... their stupidity has opened pandora's box.. on both sides...

---

one minor thing I do want to say...

if you are ready to spout b.s. please be ready to back it up... some of the posters here do have more than half a brain and are not quite as gullible as the nascar dads who get all warmed up when bush utters a bushism and then claim he's the man they would love to have a beer with (he happens to be a teetotaller)

accusing someone of being a traitor is a serious charge... you have presented nothing to back it up... in fact if anything you have opened bush and many members of his cabinet open to the same charges you have leveled v/s kerry simply by the criterion you have levelled...

---

furthermore it is despicable for anyone to make any kind of predictions v/s an american who is running for office as the president of the united concerning their assasination or hoping that they die...

as much as I dislike bush and his administration... I would never dream of suggesting that anyone come forth and assasinate him or hoping that he dies...

he has done what he has done because he believed it was the right thing... I happen to disagree and thats that...
 
Grandmaster said:
The good news (in my opinion) is that Kerry is ahead in the electoral vote, for now atleast.

http://electoral-vote.com/
Oh God...please let it continue this way.
laugh.gif
 
all kindsa pundits are out...

apparently a poll of kids thru 12 years shows bush will win... other punditery involves the fact the redskins lost which means kerry will win...

/me shrugs

I am still hoping against hope that tens of millions more american's will write in john mc Cain and he will be the next president :D
 
How did Kerry server two tours in 6 months? AFAIK a tour is a year?

My problem with Kerry is that he will do/say anything to appease whomever he is around. You can't really say that about Bush, agree or disagree, the man is going to do what he says, whether its the popular thing or not.

As far as Iraq, I can't believe that the big picture is missed by everyone, but we are fighting terrorists. They know that a democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan would help to stabilize a very unstable part of the world. Throw that in with Sharon's Gaza pullout plan, and the Middle East might actually become a [relatively] stable region. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that a result of our so-called illegal war, as deemed by Kofi Annan. Kerry wants to buddy up with the likes of the UN and the French. That scares the hell out of me. If you understood the Oil-for-food scandal which seems to be missing from the mainstream [aka Liberal] media, you would know that no matter what president was in office, the French, Germans, and Russians were not going to cooperate. So the idea of a global coalition along with the UN is moot, it was never going to happen. The democrats want you to forget that there was a 9/11, that it has changed our global outlook, it was imperative that we deal with perceived threats and no matter how many times Perris like to misconstrue the 9/11 Report, which is based largely on Richard Clark's testimony, and I think Condoleeza Rice sums it up best:

"We, of course, had, of course, heard that, in 1998, when Dick Clarke was the counter-terrorism czar, Al Qaeda had bombed U.S. embassies. We, of course, heard that Al Qaeda was suspected of bombing the [USS] Cole in 2000 when Dick Clarke was counter-terrorism czar. And we learned that plots against the U.S. had been hatching since the '90s, when Dick Clarke was counter-terrorism czar."

As far as the economy is concerned, I really don't think the stimulous this economy needs is widespread taxation along with socialized healthcare. Unfortunately [in John Kerry's mind] we are a capitalist economy, and if he is so in favor of highly taxing the rich, why did he only pay 12% on his [or more importantly his wife's] income. Taxing the highest bracket, aka the 200k + bracket, only hurts those falling just in that bracket, which do not have the means to fight the taxes via high-priced lawyers and accountants, and this also includes small business owners, who currently employ I blieve the number is 35% of our country. The other main damage his plan does is with capital gains taxes, this will discourage investments, and more than likely kill the markets. On the other hand, it will be very hard for him to get anything done with a republican majority on the hill. But he is used to this, I don't think Kerry did anything in his senate carrer other than approve every tax bill and oppose all defense bills, and thats on the few days he actually showed up [over generalized, just to keep perris happy].

Anyways, I don't think you have to look too hard to figure out what chad will be hanging from my ballot :p
 
But the argument is about what the difference between the two will be, especially regarding foreign policy. Presidents are only a figurehead, it’s the team behind them that counts, that’s why the Kennedy presidency was so remarkable they had both strength in depth and knew how to manipulate the media.

:)
 
j79zlr said:
How did Kerry server two tours in 6 months? AFAIK a tour is a year?

read the official reports... per them he served 2 tours... one aboard the USS gridley or whatever... and the 2nd aboard the swiftboats...

My problem with Kerry is that he will do/say anything to appease whomever he is around. You can't really say that about Bush, agree or disagree, the man is going to do what he says, whether its the popular thing or not.

this is the same for almost any politician... especially bush...

he says he holds one position but if you check it up you will notice his position or the reasoning for that position changes as much as or more than the RNC claims kerry changes positions...

I would rather have a man in charge who knows when something is wrong and makes attempts to correct it rather than a man who knows something is wrong and makes no attempts to correct it... instead he continues on with his hard-headed approach...

the entire "flip-flop" thing is all bogus anyways... if it was not for bush's PR machine it would not even be an issue... and the pre-emptive attacks of kerry as a flip-flopper are directly a result of the RNC's attempts to cover up bush's own flop-flops throughout his presidency...

while kerry answers and defends the trumped up charges of being a flip-flopper... its not that easy to counter and point @ bush's own flip-flops...

anyone who was not swallowing both parties pr would see clearly that the "flip-flop" title applies to both... more so to bush than kerry...

As far as Iraq, I can't believe that the big picture is missed by everyone, but we are fighting terrorists. They know that a democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan would help to stabilize a very unstable part of the world. Throw that in with Sharon's Gaza pullout plan, and the Middle East might actually become a [relatively] stable region. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that a result of our so-called illegal war, as deemed by Kofi Annan. Kerry wants to buddy up with the likes of the UN and the French. That scares the hell out of me. If you understood the Oil-for-food scandal which seems to be missing from the mainstream [aka Liberal] media, you would know that no matter what president was in office, the French, Germans, and Russians were not going to cooperate. So the idea of a global coalition along with the UN is moot, it was never going to happen. The democrats want you to forget that there was a 9/11, that it has changed our global outlook, it was imperative that we deal with perceived threats and no matter how many times Perris like to misconstrue the 9/11 Report, which is based largely on Richard Clark's testimony, and I think Condoleeza Rice sums it up best:

"We, of course, had, of course, heard that, in 1998, when Dick Clarke was the counter-terrorism czar, Al Qaeda had bombed U.S. embassies. We, of course, heard that Al Qaeda was suspected of bombing the [USS] Cole in 2000 when Dick Clarke was counter-terrorism czar. And we learned that plots against the U.S. had been hatching since the '90s, when Dick Clarke was counter-terrorism czar."

the big picture?

Secretary of State Colin Powell has privately confided to friends in recent weeks that the Iraqi insurgents are winning the war, according to Newsweek. The insurgents have succeeded in infiltrating Iraqi forces "from top to bottom," a senior Iraqi official tells Newsweek in tomorrow's issue of the magazine, "from decision making to the lower levels."

obviously the big picture is going splendidly...

the oil-for-food scandal involves US companies and citizens as well as those from other nations... keep that in mind...

concerning the leading of other nations in a global alliance... its what we do best and is the best way for us to minimize losses and spread the costs... I fail to see how this can possibly be a bad thing...

observe the first gulf war... compare it to the second gulf war and it becomes very obvious exactly what a TRUE coalition does and what american leadership of a PROPER coalition can achieve...

if you have taken the time to read the hundreds of pages of the 9/11 report you will see no evidence of a tie between al-qaeda and iraq... on the other hand you will see plenty of evidence of ties to iran/pakistan and saudi arabia...

keep in mind, AQ attacked america on american soil on 9/11... iraq did not... this is cyclic argument but its infuriating when we are willing to go after iraq while overlooking the other nations that were involved and were known to have been involved... the 9/11 comission saw the much of the same evidence that the bush admin and the senators who voted in the various bills saw...

As far as the economy is concerned, I really don't think the stimulous this economy needs is widespread taxation along with socialized healthcare. Unfortunately [in John Kerry's mind] we are a capitalist economy, and if he is so in favor of highly taxing the rich, why did he only pay 12% on his [or more importantly his wife's] income. Taxing the highest bracket, aka the 200k + bracket, only hurts those falling just in that bracket, which do not have the means to fight the taxes via high-priced lawyers and accountants, and this also includes small business owners, who currently employ I blieve the number is 35% of our country. The other main damage his plan does is with capital gains taxes, this will discourage investments, and more than likely kill the markets. On the other hand, it will be very hard for him to get anything done with a republican majority on the hill. But he is used to this, I don't think Kerry did anything in his senate carrer other than approve every tax bill and oppose all defense bills, and thats on the few days he actually showed up [over generalized, just to keep perris happy].

statements like that show a failure to realise kerry's voting record or kerry's plan and is simply a regurgitation of the GOP's ads and their basic platform...

kerry's plans are definitely far from great... however before bashing kerry's plans please point out how bush's plans are better?

not one of his plans wrt tax cuts or medicare or education or anything else has borne fruition... much of it has basically led to big business gaining a bigger foothold in our government...

while I am not a fan of more taxation or anything of that nature.. I am far more averse to allowing big business to run the nation and make ridiculous profits while reducing the benefits of the people...

till someone who has an inkling of fiscal responsibility and/or common sense comes to power... I am willing to suffer through the status quo rather than mortgaging the future of the nation to greedy corporate interests...

Anyways, I don't think you have to look too hard to figure out what chad will be hanging from my ballot :p

thank god for all the electronic voting than init :cool:

unfortunately its led to more issues than any hanging chad could have possibly dreamed of...
 
weee, a few things :D

Xie, you're correct. I understand where Collin Powell is coming from, and can respect that. I can also see how in the Bush admin he has been used. Along with his comment about not letting them bastards run him from office, I also remember reading that his popularity among the American public was greater then Bush's...

tbh, I had thought of sending him a mailing (not that it would ever have reached him anyhow...usually it just goes to the secretarial staff or what not, and from there, the garbage pail. One might get a nice canned reply on official stationary, but otherwise... In the end, I didn't...and it would be something he would have to come to on his own.

I would have hoped that he could make the leap to understand that, given a republican form of government paints these as representatives that are supposed to be representing us (aka a government of the people, by the people, and for the people), the ultimate duty is to nation and the American people who they're supposed to serve. I do understand where he's comming from though, and do respect that aspect of things.

2. Let me re-itterate

Sazar said:
in law one thing is important above all.... precedence... and thanks to the florida supreme court... their stupidity has opened pandora's box.. on both sides...

I took Constitutional law many years back. Stari decisis (or precedent) is not the only doctrine of legal interpretation. There are some others, such as looking at the intent of the law (aka trying to get into the minds of the authors and understand the intent behind the words), and some others. But precedent is a very important one, and does weigh into things heavily. The court system, typically speaking has tended to be more reserved/conservative, and much slower to change then other branches of the government.

Reversals of decisions/positions have occured of sorts (Brown vs. Board of Education against the backdrop of Plessy vs. Ferguson for instance). But even there, the change was smaller then the media made it out to be, looking at the actual words of the 2 decisions (as well as the disenting view in Plessy itself). This could be the topic of another discussion, so suffice it to say, courts don't tend to just do an abut face on a position already established by precident, very quickly, or to a greater degree then deemed necessary. Precident is important.

3. Whoever wins the election, I think the president will very possibly have certain challenges over the next 4 years. I doubt seriously it would be seen as a picnic by 2008

- Whoever gets it, will have the current situation in Iraq, the insurgency, anarchy, etc to deal with

- World public opinion had shown very much against Bush. After the "you're with us, or with the terrorists" rhetoric, I could well see foreign governments wanting certain concessions, before re-establishing certain bridges which had already been burned. I can only hope, if this is the case, the concessions they seek, will in fact be for the good of their own people, who they themselves are supposed to serve, and not something outragious which benefits no one...

- If the elections don't leave a decisive victory, but leave the sort of taste in people's mouth we saw in 2000, I'm not convinced that the country (and to the pount it's people) wouldn't remain just as divided after the elections, as they are currently on certain matters... And if the division per chance should grow?

Just to name a few
 
I didn't hear that he had served two tours, I just heard he was there for 6 months, it was an honest question.

As far as changing positions, sure Bush has changed positions, and I believe that Kerry sure holds his vote for all Democratic bills and reject all Republican bills position very strongly. Although I was generalizing, and I did state that, it is more or less true. He voted against all of the weapon systems we use today. He voted against the first Gulf War too.

The first Gulf War basically set the oil-for-Food program in place, so the UN and other European nations were not benefiting from it then and a coalition would be possible. Every media outlet has stayed away from that story, well at least the obvious liberal media e.g. all news media barring public radio and FNC. As far as US companies, there were 248 companies listed as buying Iraqi oil, and 3,545 that dealt with humanitarian aid. Four were US.

I agree that there is a problem with both candidates proposals, what really needs to be done is to curb Government spending. GWB wants to kill everyone, and Kerry wants to give everyone a free physical. Personally I like the idea of my tax dollars going to kill terrorists. Bush's tax cuts did go through, I got a check. He has done medicare reform along with the prescription drug plan. Its not perfect, but you said nothing was done. Mortgage rates are at an all time low, home ownership is at an all time high, and the unemployment rate is lower than when Clinton was in office. All this after suffering the worst act against us on our soil in 50 years, which very well could have bankrupted us, along with the inheritted .com recession. I would say thats not bad.

I don't think that there will ever be a true governement reform, which needs to be done. The government should have to go under the intense financial scutiny like the Enrons of the world, and we would have a surplus without a question. Unfortunately this will never happen. It is not about fiscal responsibility, it is about the 500 layers of beauracracy at the federal level. The problem is that Kerry wants to make that 700 layers.
 
This is the first election where

Who gathers the polling data for electoral-vote.com? People can't just look at one poll and think it's the final word. All polls have margin of error; all polls take a very minor sampling of the overall population of a state; any poll can be skewed in any number of ways. There are literally hundreds of polls that all show data that is sometimes vastly different. After being exposed to these massive amounts of polling data, polls make we want to throw up. HAAaaaa...

A few helpful websites for everyone who can't get enough of massive polling (TONS of polls):
http://realclearpolitics.com/
http://zogby.com/
http://gallup.com/poll/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/polls/usatodaypolls.htm

You'll get a lot more accurate info from looking at many polls than looking at just one. I encourage everyone to learn more about polls and how they are collected.
 
Unwonted: electoral vote uses a great number of different polls. It's certainly more accurate than just using one poll. You can find out how exactly they came up with their numbers on the site.
 
Excellent. I like to see responsible reporting.

EDIT: Although their math is faulty. They show Kerry having FL, but...

electoral-vote.com said:
State Mason-Dixon Rasmussen Zogby
Florida Bush by 4% Bush by 1% Kerry by 2%

Maybe they're just going off Zogby.
 
Kerry served two tours which were four months total. He wounded himself on the second tour to get out. Plain and simple, he's a coward. He will be a worse President than Clinton ever was if he is elected. He never sticks to what he says and is full of garbage with every word that comes out of his mouth. All you people who are supporting will see that he is so wrong. He won't do any of the things he claims. He will make the Bush senior lie look like a sunday school picnic. He is a liar, a cheat, a fraud, a trader, a coward, a back stabber, a crook, a robber, a two faced idiotic windbag in search of his own idiocy. He's such a putts ..
 
the thing I don't understand about this thread is 85% of what everybody is saying is generalities with no proof behind it...including my own posts and that's why I decided to opt out of this thread

opinions dont sway people and everyone here is locked in their ways

the funny part about everything is all the candidates are saying is generalities with biased proof behind it ;)
 
j79zlr said:
As far as Iraq, I can't believe that the big picture is missed by everyone, but we are fighting terrorists.
I think for the most part we are fighting the people of Iraq that no longer want us there .. not terrorists. I read an article maybe a week ago that broke down some #'s and showed that the majority of "insurgents" were infact Iraqs own people that have decided they want there country back, not terrorist groups that are attacking us to stop democracy like spin machines would like you to beleive. Also as more join the fight against us I don't see how you could have a "stable" Iraq anytime in the near future as long as it's seen as a US occupation.
 
Thats not true though. There are Iraqi's of course that are fighting, but alot of the insurgents are from Syria and Saudi Arabia, I'm guessing you are reading the largest, most organized spin machine, the US media.
 

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Also Hi EP and people. I found this place again while looking through a oooollllllldddd backup. I have filled over 10TB and was looking at my collection of antiques. Any bids on the 500Mhz Win 95 fix?
Any of the SP crew still out there?
Xie wrote on Electronic Punk's profile.
Impressed you have kept this alive this long EP! So many sites have come and gone. :(

Just did some crude math and I apparently joined almost 18yrs ago, how is that possible???
hello peeps... is been some time since i last came here.
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Rest in peace my friend, been trying to find you and finally did in the worst way imaginable.

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