bin laden near capture!!!

j79zlr said:
damn perris, sooner or later you would understand that everyone was telling him he need to act now. I think only Michael Moore and yourself are the ones that still believe this. MI6, CIA, German intelligence, Czech Intelligence, even the French, all said he had WMD's. Russian intelligence said that he was planning on attacking the US. Again, I've said this approximately 1000 times, you chastize him for not doing anything about 9/11 [which I don't believe] prior to its occurance via the ambiguous terror threat notice he received, yet by going ahead and doing a preemptive strike he is evil. :rolleyes:

the threat was not what bush claimed it to be... if the people protesting it and those who did not join the coalition could see it why couldn't bush?

the arguments then are the same as now... is saddam a threat? is saddam an immediate threat.. is saddam a bigger threat than the other nations with more advanced weapons programs...

for all the last 2 I would say no... you can make an argument for the first point in that he was a threat... thats about it...

not everyone was telling bush to attack iraq now... not that i know of anyways... but he was probably advised by his closest peoples (ie feith/wolfowitz and co) who are pro-war hawks...
 
Maveric169 said:
I totally agree with ya here bro! The mess that has become Iraq is due to piss poor planning and rushing into the job. Any carpenter will tell you, measure twice, cut once. With the US having the most technoligicly advanced satilites, weapons, and supposedly inteleigence gathering sources, they sure didn't seem to use them.

That is the one question that has always stuck with me. Why the big rush job to goto to war with Iraq? I suppose it is the same reason that a simple disagreement and rapidly turn into a fist fight. Same concept, different application.

I'll agree here also. The planning was not what I would have expected (why the JCOS didn't consult me on this one I'll never know... :p )

I agree with the reasons to take out Saddam, but I think we could have done it better, with less loss of life. Of course, there would now be unbelievable whining about how our multi-million dollar guided weapons keep landing on daycares and hospitals...oh, wait, there is anyhow... :rolleyes:


Breaking News just popped up...body count has exceeded 1000 by AP standards. Oh boy, BOHICA.
 
k
j79zlr said:
damn perris, sooner or later you would understand that everyone was telling him he need to act now.

no, they weren't...most of his aids were telling him NOT to go to war...the only aid that wanted war along with him was rhumsfeld, and every one of his other advisor's warned him against the action...clark, Powell, rice...everyone

MI6, CIA, German intelligence, Czech Intelligence, even the French, all said he had WMD's. Russian intelligence said that he was planning on attacking the US.

jeeze, you keep coming up with what ever you want to make a case that not only doesn't exist, but didn't exist

once again...Bush's own advisor's have already told us that they informed Bush that he was exaggerating and misinterpreting his case for the war when he spoke to us.

whatever you want to make believe existed as proof for his unprovoked war will hopefully be put to and end with what the Bush commissioned hearing about 9/11 (headed by a republican and as kind to this republican president as possible I might add) says to the point you so often and failingly try to make.

here's a cut and paste;

After reviewing about 400 analytical documents written by the intelligence agencies from 1991, after the first gulf war, to 2003, when the Hussein rule was toppled, the committee unanimously concluded that "the body of assessments showed that Iraqi military capabilities had steadily degraded following defeat in the first gulf war in 1991. Analysts also believed those capabilities would continue to erode as long as economic sanctions remained in place."

The intelligence agencies, though, were much less certain about Mr. Hussein's intentions
(as they correctly told bush before the war, which this report documents for you j79) then Bush told us...instead he told us he had definite proof) the committee said.

"Clearly, the issue of Saddam's intentions to use force against his neighbors and U.S. and coalition forces was a high-interest matter( which the president kept insisting be high interestb]" the report said, "and, unfortunately, the main area where the intelligence community was least confident in its analysis."[/b]

and their analysis of this ridiculous action by this president;


"Tragically, the intelligence failure set forth in this report will affect our national security for generations to come," Mr. Rockefeller said. "Our credibility is diminished. Our standing in the world has never been lower. We have fostered a deep hatred of Americans in the Muslim world, and that will grow. As a direct consequence, our nation is more vulnerable today than ever before."


Again, I've said this approximately 1000 times, you chastize him for not doing anything about 9/11 [which I don't believe] prior to its occurance via the ambiguous terror threat notice he received, yet by going ahead and doing a preemptive strike he is evil. :rolleyes:

how on earth you compare the starting of war unprovoked to defending this nation against a threat that is made absolutely clear would be happening within months, as precise as telling us where and and how is just beyond reason

if you'd like to see the protocol set by former presidents with similar information, simply go to page 128 of the report, where you'll see a president before Bush that received an almost identical warning.

that man defended this country

this president took a vacation...no need to speculate on what should have been done, the presidence was there to follow
 
have a read of the 9/11 report j79, they dissagree with that cnn report...sorry
 
I'm gonna go start my truck and rev the **** outta it!!!!!!!!!!!

My fuking neighbourt is playin their ****ty music rellay finkiubn loud!!!!!!!!
 
Perris, you have to take the commission at face value. It is a very narrow look at exactly what happened that fateful day. It was not meant to look for the Iraq connection or anything else. It was commissioned to investion the single attack made by a single organization. Don't believe the headlines in the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post et al.

You continually point out that the terrorists were from Saudia Arabia. I know this. Bush knows this, and so does his administration. Now since we economically can't attack SA because of our dependence on their oil and their hold of religious territories. If only we could insert our troops into a strategic place like just north of their border, hmm wait, we did.

The 9/11 report is not the answer all as you would like to believe it. You would have to have blinders on to think that Saddam did not condone and even perpetuate the terrorists. I don't think you can clearly draw a line between the motives and actions of these middle east extremists, and Iraq has been in bed with alot of these groups [giving Hamas bombers' families money for West bank attacks, harboring Abu Abbas, etc.], again the line is not clear. But anyone furthuring the turbulence in that region is a threat to our collective security.
 
j79zlr said:
Perris, you have to take the commission at face value. It is a very narrow look at exactly what happened that fateful day. It was not meant to look for the Iraq connection or anything else. It was commissioned to investion the single attack made by a single organization. Don't believe the headlines in the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post et al.

You continually point out that the terrorists were from Saudia Arabia. I know this. Bush knows this, and so does his administration. Now since we economically can't attack SA because of our dependence on their oil and their hold of religious territories. If only we could insert our troops into a strategic place like just north of their border, hmm wait, we did.

The 9/11 report is not the answer all as you would like to believe it. You would have to have blinders on to think that Saddam did not condone and even perpetuate the terrorists. I don't think you can clearly draw a line between the motives and actions of these middle east extremists, and Iraq has been in bed with alot of these groups [giving Hamas bombers' families money for West bank attacks, harboring Abu Abbas, etc.], again the line is not clear. But anyone furthuring the turbulence in that region is a threat to our collective security.

the full 9/11 report including all pertinent links does in fact discuss the war in iraq to an extent (wrt saddam's possible role) and dismisses an iraqi angle.. it also implicates iran in a bigger role and pakistan and makes assertions about saudi involvement...

a very good read if you really want to go through it and it is comprehensive in its findings and reportings of fact...

the russian report has never been corroborated or mentioned by the american goverment to my knowledge and was not publicly revealed at any time as a corroboration for the saddam angle in the war on terrorism... given that cheney and co linked Saddam to 9/11 it is a little far-fetched to think that were this information in fact solid and corroborated that the administration would fail to report it to the people...

heck we took teh word of "curveball" and showed the world in lovely powerpoint presentations the existence (factually of course) of various trailers and bunkers and stockpiles in the UN... if we did that why not also talk about putin's assertions in detail..

saddam undoubtedly would have condoned the attacks but IIRC he did not... he did not condemn the attacks but i don't recall any reports of saddam rejoicing... rather he said something along the lines of "it was expected" or something like that...

saddam gave money to some familes of palestinians who had blown themselves up.. but he did it AFTER the event... he has had no actual involvement with al-qaeda other than feelers...

this would be pretty much common sense once you look @ the way osama operates and the way saddam operates and makes more sense when you consider that osama colluded with kurds in northern iraq to engage in insurgency against saddam...
 
Well anyone can play the armchair leader game, its all too easy to say what should be done after the fact, and its always that way, if you had a clue about what to do before hand you would be king. But like anything its always after the fact that everyone knows better and knew exactly what should have been done.

typical arm chair cowboys.
 
that would be accurate were the so called arm chair cowboys saying something different from the get-go..

the arm-chair cowboys I know and hold a discourse with have maintained since the first days that invading iraq was a bad idea... using the same information we all have here and far less than bush's administration had a chance to selectively pick and choose with to present to congress it was apparent to the world that invading iraq was ridiculous for the reasons cited...

removing saddam... heck I am all for that... we could and should have found a better way to do it... bush choose the easiest option to make himself look like a hero and we are all paying for that rush of blood...

russia has come forth and has claimed the same policy of pre-emption as the united states of america now and is likely to proceed with indiscriminate action against chechens... and the funny thing is we can't say a damn thing to them about it because we would look like idiots...

there is an old proverb... look before you leap... we obviously didn't and failing to discuss the reasons and ways to improve the process after it has occured rather than shoving it under a doormat is counter-productive...

bush has never admitted he made a mistake and I doubt he will till he is well removed from politics... for the presidential pr it is improper for him to do so...
 
j79zlr said:
Perris, you have to take the commission at face value. It is a very narrow look at exactly what happened that fateful day. It was not meant to look for the Iraq connection or anything else. It was commissioned to investion the single attack made by a single organization. Don't believe the headlines in the NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post et al.

You continually point out that the terrorists were from Saudia Arabia. I know this. Bush knows this, and so does his administration. Now since we economically can't attack SA because of our dependence on their oil and their hold of religious territories. If only we could insert our troops into a strategic place like just north of their border, hmm wait, we did.

The 9/11 report is not the answer all as you would like to believe it. You would have to have blinders on to think that Saddam did not condone and even perpetuate the terrorists. I don't think you can clearly draw a line between the motives and actions of these middle east extremists, and Iraq has been in bed with alot of these groups [giving Hamas bombers' families money for West bank attacks, harboring Abu Abbas, etc.], again the line is not clear. But anyone furthuring the turbulence in that region is a threat to our collective security.

Hit it right on the money. The problem is, everyone wants concrete connections, but there are none! Not because they don't exist here folks, but lets be realistic...did you think Saddam was going to keep records in triplicate of his involvement!? Osama operates out of caves much of the time! I'm sure htere are no filing cabinets there! We can only go on the "circumstantial" evidence we have, and boy is there a $hitload! Shall I enlighten anyone with some of it, besides what j79zlr has already posted? Again guys, the 9/11 report IS NOT the say all and end all. It took a very light look at possible connections, not an exaustive one. Damn good post j79zlr!

I said I'd give up on this subject for awhile but I saw this post and had to respond. me bad :eek:
 
anyone that thinks saddam was associated even though Bush's own aids say he was not, Bush's own aids say they told Bush that saddam was not associated is simply burying their head in the sand so that they can justify a continued support for the failed actions of this president

anyone that doesn't realise saddam was an obsession of this president since he first took office, and simply used 9/11 as an exxuse to satisfy his obseission is just not following the facts as they undfolded..this man had a sick obsession with saddam, we are paying the price as a people, and there are those of you that think this is fine

again, all of this was known before the war, and this is not arm chair quarterbacking, all of this was clearly predicted

four more years of the incredible insight this president has demonstrated...great
 
ThePatriot said:
Hit it right on the money. The problem is, everyone wants concrete connections, but there are none! Not because they don't exist here folks, but lets be realistic...did you think Saddam was going to keep records in triplicate of his involvement!? Osama operates out of caves much of the time! I'm sure htere are no filing cabinets there! We can only go on the "circumstantial" evidence we have, and boy is there a $hitload! Shall I enlighten anyone with some of it, besides what j79zlr has already posted? Again guys, the 9/11 report IS NOT the say all and end all. It took a very light look at possible connections, not an exaustive one. Damn good post j79zlr!

I said I'd give up on this subject for awhile but I saw this post and had to respond. me bad :eek:

please do post the evidence... both yourself and j79zlr... coz i need a heck of a lot of convincing on this matter...

we are talking about a non-religious leader in saddam and a religious fanatic in osama...

osama actively supported the kurds against saddam in iraq... al-qaeda trained in camps in the kurdish regions of iraq... these are the SAME kurds who were our allies when we invaded and occupied iraq...

what possible reason did saddam have to work with osama? its just ridiculously implausible...

if there is any half-way decent information about saddam's alleged ties to the 9/11 happenings please do highlight it... the members of the commission had pretty much all the information the bush administration had and they discounted it... cheney/powell and co have all discounted any links as has bush... cheney has then flip-flopped alluding to possibilities and perhaps nots in more recent times so take that for what you will...

either way there is no evidence I have seen so far that alludes to any relationship between al-qaeda and saddam... compare that with the solid connections between iranian elements and al-qaeda and pakistani elements (including the ISI) and al-qaeda...

please provide the links and evidence so we can discuss this in a little more detail... maybe I will learn something new :cool:
 
Well, this is the quickest link I could find. I'm at home and most of my docs are on my laptop at work. But it will at least give you a start. Now, I'm not saying Saddam was holding Osamas hand while devising this plan, but at the very least, in my opinion, Saddam contributed cash and/or harbored Osama cronies. See here http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp

Yes, I know, everyone and their brother has an article debunking it. But when you start putting pieces together, like these questionable figures showing up in Iraq...Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi...not to mention places like Salman Pak, then see photos like below, it's not difficult in my mind to see some kind of connection.

Incidently, the 2nd mural reads "3d Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division soldiers found this painting. The caption to the mural of Mr. Hussein and the WTC say; "The Right Honorable, Mr. President, Leader, Holy Warrior Saddam Hussein (may God protect him)." The badge between Mr. Hussein and the WTC at the middle and top of the mural says;
"Allah protect Iraq and Saddam.""

As I said, it's circumstantial at best, but if it smells like fish, and looks like fish...well...it's most likely fish. Did our Govt say that there was no connection? Yes, no definitive connection. But under their breath and anonymously they'll all tell you a different story. Why? Well, no concrete evidence...it's not good for their careers. You see, I'm not a fan of career politicians, but they're all we got. Maybe this didn't do anything to convince anyone, but I hope at least you now understand my reasoning. It's no crazier than some of the stories I've seen here about the Pentagon hit. :p

Oh, and as far as Osama and Saddam being on opposite sides of the Islamic track...ever hear the saying " Any enemy of my enemy is my friend "?
 

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MMMMMmm was that a stab ay my crazy theory's lololol

HEY I aggree with you there all in the same boat and we need to blow that sucker out of the water and who cares what people think, there is always the other side to any story but as far as bleeding hearts go what can you do , cry baby's thats all , the people that sign up as soldiers know that they can end up in a war thats there JOB and DUTY , if ya think anything different your just a bleeding heart end of story.
 
ThePatriot said:
Well, this is the quickest link I could find. I'm at home and most of my docs are on my laptop at work. But it will at least give you a start. Now, I'm not saying Saddam was holding Osamas hand while devising this plan, but at the very least, in my opinion, Saddam contributed cash and/or harbored Osama cronies. See here http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp

ok I will answer your post bit by bit...

Yes, I know, everyone and their brother has an article debunking it. But when you start putting pieces together, like these questionable figures showing up in Iraq...Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas, Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi...not to mention places like Salman Pak, then see photos like below, it's not difficult in my mind to see some kind of connection.

the fact of the matter is pretty much all we know about saddam's purported connections that have long been broadcast as fact (ie zarqawi, salman pak and co) were actually incorrect...

zarqawi may well have been in iraq... remember the terrorist camps in the north in kurdish territory? compare that with the assertion zarqawi was in baghdad for treatment for losing a leg...

the problem with that is there is no indication he was in fact in baghdad and it becomes even more suspect when you see him running round on both feet... the administration has already acknowledged they may have been mistaken on this point..

abu nidal was also present in iraq... but from all reports I have read abu nidal (the organisation) never launced any activities in america and was primarily working against israel...

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/abu-nidal/

the information for salman pak came from the by now famous chalabi and his brilliant sources... from 2 sources... both iraqi defectors who were groomed by chalabi before being presented to wolfowitz and company...

abu abbas was afforded asylum in iraq... that is a fact and there is no denying this... but there is a difference in providing asylum for a palestinian militant and colluding with al-qaeda...

Incidently, the 2nd mural reads "3d Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division soldiers found this painting. The caption to the mural of Mr. Hussein and the WTC say; "The Right Honorable, Mr. President, Leader, Holy Warrior Saddam Hussein (may God protect him)." The badge between Mr. Hussein and the WTC at the middle and top of the mural says;
"Allah protect Iraq and Saddam.""

a painting showing saddam enjoying the fall of the WTC does not mean he was involved with al-qaeda or with the fall of the WTC buildings... if this was the case why did we not attack and destroy the PLO ?

As I said, it's circumstantial at best, but if it smells like fish, and looks like fish...well...it's most likely fish. Did our Govt say that there was no connection? Yes, no definitive connection. But under their breath and anonymously they'll all tell you a different story. Why? Well, no concrete evidence...it's not good for their careers. You see, I'm not a fan of career politicians, but they're all we got. Maybe this didn't do anything to convince anyone, but I hope at least you now understand my reasoning. It's no crazier than some of the stories I've seen here about the Pentagon hit. :p

Oh, and as far as Osama and Saddam being on opposite sides of the Islamic track...ever hear the saying " Any enemy of my enemy is my friend "?

circumstantial and fishy when selectively looked at... when you consider the fact that saddam and osama believed in entirely different things in many other respects other than their animosity towards america and their idealogical beliefs and couple that with the fact that osama (al-qaeda) was working AGAINST saddam in iraq it becomes a little more dodgy...

@ the end of the day there is proof (which has not been refuted) of saddam and his generosity towards palestinians...

there is no proof other than fishy circumstances in selective context that saddam did indeed have activities with al-qaeda...

none of the al-qaeda operatives nor any of the iraqi officials captured have so far said anything to the effect... keep in mind the interogation tactics used @ abu ghraib before you discount the importance of this fact...

-edit-

and yes I know all about the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing... thats how we hooked up and installed saddam in iraq in the first place... thats the same policy we are using wrt pakistan currently and is the main reason israel is one of our key allies...

it's still a load of b.s.
 
once again, from the Bush commisioned hearing headed by a republican...I am amazed anyone keeps trying to hang on to a hope that the Bush claims of a connections are right, and the Bush aids who told him before the war that there was no connection are wrong, anyway, here it is plain and simple;

Our report found that the intelligence community's judgments were right on Iraq's ties to terrorists, when they said that there were no ties) which is another way of saying that the administration's conclusions were wrong, and that is of the relationship -- formal relationship, however you want to describe it, between Iraq and Al Qaida, and no evidence existed of Iraq's complicity or assistance in Al Qaida's terrorist attacks, including 9/11, which, through the device of Mohammed Atta and others

It was clear to all of us in this room who were watching that, and to many others, that they had made up their mind that they were going to go to war
 
Well we all have an opinion dont we , dont mean your right or wrong huh
 

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