War on Iraq

[dave holbon]

Song of Summer: -

Waiting for the break of day
Searching for something to say
Flashing lights against the sky
Giving up I close me eyes

This was recorded by a band called Chicago about 25 years ago. All that have looked at the television pictures tonight from Baghdad will know what I mean.

Goodby Sadam

Goodby French

Hello frends!!!

 

[Tabula Rasa]

bleh.
just wait 15 years... you know, when you "liberate" Iraq and Afghanistan again.

 

[dave holbon]

Stop dreaming! This is for real; someone’s doing something not talking about it.
:blink:

 

[Tabula Rasa]

well thats true... maybe its something as well.
i still say bleh tho.

 

[dave holbon]

I was told once that the last great barriers between people or the last great evils are politics and religion in (whatever) order. When a Jihad had been issued (back to the crusades) this is usually a political gesture issued as a religious order to its more extreme elements.

My personal opinion is that religion is the first evil that needs to be overcome followed by politics at it attracts power and glory merchants/brokers and religion is a way for the power brokers to implement or propagate their own views on the populous.

:huh:

 

[Tabula Rasa]

Originally posted by Dave Holbon
I was told once that the last great barriers between people or the last great evils are politics and religion in (whatever) order. When a Jihad had been issued (back to the crusades) this is usually a political gesture issued as a religious order to its more extreme elements.

My personal opinion is that religion is the first evil that needs to be overcome followed by politics at it attracts power and glory merchants/brokers and religion is a way for the power brokers to implement or propagate their own views on the populous.

:huh:

Religion is not the problem, forcing people to believe or accept that religion is the way i see it.

 

[dave holbon]

Please clarify that view.

 

[Tabula Rasa]

well, any religion or idea is fine if it isn't forced.
you want to believe in something thats your right, and if i want to thats my right as well, but if i try to force my beliefs on you thats when the trouble starts.

 

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Benny
well, any religion or idea is fine if it isn't forced.
you want to believe in something thats your right, and if i want to thats my right as well, but if i try to force my beliefs on you thats when the trouble starts.

that may well be the most sensible thing I have ever read from you benny.. and I agree completely...

 

[Tabula Rasa]

Originally posted by Sazar
that may well be the most sensible thing I have ever read from you benny.. and I agree completely...

that? not my adventures with my goat? your weird Sazar...

 

[Perris Calderon]

I have to agree with Dave

organized religion will breed one of the most powerful forces a human being Will possess.

it's the force of faith, and the force of a multitude with faith.

The heads of religion will have at their hands the ability to wield this awsome force and power.

of course, absolute power will corrupt, absolutely.

now, combine the force of power, with the force of patriotism, and there is an army at the beck, and at the whim, of the politicians who might also be the leaders in the current religion.

the leaders and priests from Afghanistan have demonstrated this, haven't they.

let's keep this as an important that our forefathers had the wisdom to try to prevent, when ever we think it might be a good idea in America to challenge the separation of government and of religion.

and so, I believe a religion might be fine, however an orgnaized religion that is part of the political structure is surely not fine

 

[Tabula Rasa]

and ideology isn't a religion? maybe not literally, but they share a common ground, just a bunch of beliefs put together and given a name.
so what your saying is we should remove ideology? freedom of speech for example, the ideology people seem to be willing to give and arm a leg and a genitalia to keep without ever experiencing a state without it.
maybe the best state is the state where every person has its own personal ideology and can practice freely, but thats not realistic and slightly dangerous to be honest.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Benny, your question and commentary assumes that the assumption at the beginning of your paragrapgh is correct...

it's not

 

[Tabula Rasa]

Originally posted by dealer
Benny, your question and commentary assumes that the assumption at the beginning of your paragrapgh is correct...

it's not

and why isnt it?

 

[Perris Calderon]

religion challenges a mans desire for imortality...

we need to believe that our lives were not worthless...that we are going to live on.

religion satisfies our need for this immortality...this is what gives religion it's might over men

idiology does not give promise of any sort...it's an intellectual choice we make, and hope that our religion will agree with our idiology

some might have an idiology that facilitates their religion and their beliefe, and so you think they are almost synonyms

they are not even close to synonomous

 

[Tabula Rasa]

Religion isn't only about "a mans desire for immortality" .
religion is an early moral and social code, its a set of rules.
those rules in the case of religion are driven by a "higher power" , but usually very reasonable and have/had practical reasons in the days in which they where invented.

a set of rules just like a Constitution.

Ideology is also a set of beliefs, rules, social behavior.
not that different from religion at all.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Benny, you are watching the tail wag the dog...this doesn't happen, though you might think it does.

it's immortality, and then code, not visa versa.

it's like this;

my tire has a car

my car is not a tire, though all of my cars will have a tire

religion will always have an idiology

equally, idiology is not religion

two completely differant concepts.

just like a tire and a car

two completely differant concepts

 

[Tabula Rasa]

dealer , you are wrong, any first year theology student will tell you you are wrong, hell, i can tell you you are wrong.
mortality is only a part of religion, one of many.
its only recently that religion has become about mortality and the afterlife as a main issue, sense moral codes and "science" are pretty much separate from it.
and btw, religion "in its worst" usually appears in countries where the religion and the social moral codes are still tied together.
and to tie this to the current affair, Iraq is being attacked pretty much because of a moral code, in this case driven by an ideology, just like 9/11 driven by religion.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I'm heading to bed Benny, but a final disticnction to go along.

no, religion is founded, formed and developed for the sake of immortality.

of course it evolves into more then this need for immortality...so you are right of course about that.

but what brings forth religion, is the desire for immortality

and no, I am not wrong

idiology is completely differant then religion, though idiology is part of all religions, religion is clearly not part of all idiology

just like the tire and the car

idiology does not challenge you at at pain of losing your immortality.

idiology is a code that you choose as your intellectual choice.

religion challenges your choice, at sever penalty for your immortality...you don't choose, you are directed

going to bed

 

[Tabula Rasa]

I don't necessary tie religion to mortality, so for me its more about moral social codes, so is ideology.
Good night dealer.