just to start some trouble (*warning*politics)

[Perris Calderon]

this is much worse then most people imagine egghead...I doubt the results of these investigations will be made public

plus there are things that can never be investigated...as xie demonstrated...what about those types of affairs that weren't discovered?

let's imagine that "more votes then voters" is actually becuase of the Kerry camp

well, I want Kerry to be jailed for that behavior.

however, supporters of Bush don't even want this investigated...it's troublesome indeed

 

[Xie]

We need some voting reform for sure before '08. The voting system should be 100% audit friendly and open to anyone wish to view the audit trail under the freedom of information act. In no case should voting machine tape be thrown out or "misplaced" after an election that was so close (or any election for that matter). I would think there should be some kind of time lmit on how long these places have to hold on to such proof incase of an audit. This is not the case this year when groups like blackboxvoting requested to see the audit trail under the freedom of information act. They have been met with nothing but resistance and deception.

 

[Petros]

supporters of Bush don't even want this investigated...it's troublesome indeed

If we accepted the notion that Bush was involved in any illegal activity, we'd show interest at least for damage control if nothing else. The problem is that our summary rejection of that premise precludes our willingness to care.

The same would go for you. I could preach to you until I'm blue in the face that PBS should have its funding pulled since it is so politically biased, but until you accept my premise that is does have bias, you will not agree with the bottom line of my argument, thus you won't care either. I don't know your feelings on PBS, by the way, I'm just providing an example.

 

[Perris Calderon]

The problem is that our summary rejection of that premise precludes our willingness to care.

on this we agree...you have summararily rejected the very notion.

carry on then

 

[Petros]

Good. Now we're at a better understanding of why there is no outcry among Bush-supporters. It'll save you some typing the next time you're tempted to ask why.

Maybe "reject the notion" is too strong of a term. It makes it sound like we're actively fighting the notion, which we aren't. More like we "don't believe the basic assumption of the argument, so we don't really care about the point being argued". Dismissal is the word I'm looking for.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I understood the first time. you simply dismiss the whole premise

no need to explain...I've known many people that simply dismiss premise out of hand..I'll count you among those

in the mean time,

I want to know why there are more votes then voters

I want to know why exit polls are wrong for the first time in history and they are wrong in the precincts that just happen to have no paper trail

who doesn't want the answers to these questions?

I allready know that unwonted doesn;t want the answers...who else?

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

I dont want them .


j/k I just know your not getting them and in 2008 you will get more of the same might as well get used to it. Sad fact is the USA is not what they made you think it was when you were a kid in school, now your seeing what the rest of the world has known for a long time.

No insult to the people just the ones in charge.

 

[j79zlr]

Thats rare, someone from Canada who doesn't like the US.

 

[Xie]

Thats rare, someone from Canada who doesn't like the US.

I don't see any place in his post he said "I hate the US". Is he now treated like US citizens that question things?

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Nothing of the sort I just dislike the policys that have been throw around over the last 20 years or so.

Nothing at all against the "people" its the "State" that is the problem.

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

The 2nd time the "STATE" attacked Saddam , Canada declined.

Me I think Saddam the Madman needed to be removed at what cost I dont know.

The elections that just passed "wow" you sure you are a free nation the greatest free nation in the world?

What I dont like is that your made to believe that you live in the "Greatest" nation this all ready makes everybody else "less" than you .

Pretty bad way to teach kids .. here in Canada we are all the same we are not greater than or less than, we dont preach and brainwash the kids into false beliefs about how "great" we are.

Canada was voted the best country in the world to live in for I think it was 7 or 8 years in a row.

And it was and is if I am not mistaken always higher than the US.

As far as I see it the US is just another place to live it aint no better and its worse then some other places.

I think the elections are a joke down there and have been for a very long time the fact your starting to see that is good. Now your seeing what the rest of the world sees.

peace I dont hate "people" I dislike "State"

 

[Xie]

Kermit you talking about this? Canada was #1 for a number of years but it seems Norway has stolen the top position for the past 5 years.

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Yes thats it I am not trying to put down a nation or its people. Just I do not think it is healthy to raise people thinking they are better than or greater than anyone else.

And I am sure Norway , Japan and any other Nation that has ever rated higher worked hard and deserved to take the crown.

And as we can see Canada is a great place to live

 

[rotjong]

<snip>
What I dont like is that your made to believe that you live in the "Greatest" nation this all ready makes everybody else "less" than you .

Pretty bad way to teach kids .. here in Canada we are all the same we are not greater than or less than, we dont preach and brainwash the kids into false beliefs about how "great" we are.
<snip>

I'm going to have to take issue with this statement. I'm a U.S. citizen who has also lived in Canada. Not all Americans believe the U.S. is the best nor are we brainwashed into it. It doesn't take a truly disilluisioned American to see the flaws in the U.S. as a country. I accept those flaws and I am a relatively happy American. I don't go around putting down people from other countries and thinking I am from the best country in the world because I know that I am not. There is no such thing as a best country. Your statement of brainwashing is an insulting generalization of the beliefs of some people but most definitely not all.

I happen to love Canada, btw. I was born and raised in the U.S. but I lived just outside Ottawa for a bit. I'm back in the U.S. for the time being.

As for the rest of the recent discussions in this thread... I'm not even getting into it. It's not worth the time of writing out my thoughts.

rotjong

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Hey take whatever stance you like on it.

But thats the way I see it

its my opinion and I am allowed to have it.

I do not mean it on the "person level" if you cant see past that then you need to not snip bits out and look at the whole message.

Because the "message" says nothing about you and everything about your "STATE"

 

[rotjong]

Hey take whatever stance you like on it.

But thats the way I see it

its my opinion and I am allowed to have it.

I do not mean it on the "person level" if you cant see past that then you need to not snip bits out and look at the whole message.

Because the "message" says nothing about you and everything about your "STATE"

Since I don't wish to divert this thread far off its real course I will simply refer you to re-reading my previous post.

I am capable of differentiating between a "personal level" and the attack on the "STATE", believe it or not.

My statements dealt with the brainwashing issue done by the "STATE" that you mentioned and I disagree with it. My main issue is that you generalized too far and didn't limit the scope of it. You didn't use the word "some" but instead took an all-inclusive position which, while it may be your personal opinion, is flawed.

That said, I pointed out why I made my reply to your initial posting.

rotjong

PS: The point of my snipping your post in my reply was for brevity. There was no point in wasting space by having the entire post you made in my reply. I did read the whole thing and the rest of it in no way changed my reply.

 

[Perris Calderon]

so, to bring this back to topic;

I'd still like to see those who are Americans that don't want to know why there are more votes then voters...who are you?

and I'd like to see those who are Americans that don't want to find out why it is that more votes then voters just happens to be in the precincts where exit polls just happen to be wrong for the first time in history...exit polls are not wrong...exit polls are never wrong.

and those people that don't want to find out why this just happens to be in the precincts where there is no paper trail.

I'd still like to see an American that doesn't want to know the answers to those questions...I see unwonted has stood up and told us he doesn't care...anyone else?

who are you.

 

[Petros]

Stop taking my words out of context. I don't believe the basic premise of the argument, thus I don't care. What you're doing is like me saying "Aliens have infected the minds of every child in New York, and they've turned into flesh-eating zombies. But look at perris. He doesn't care."

You're trying to portray me as not caring about corruption in politics, which I deeply care about.

 

[Perris Calderon]

now you're putting words in MY mouth unwonted

I allready told you I don't care who's responsible for more votes then voters, it doesn't matter one stitch to me...I don't care who's responsible for any inequity if our presidential election

all that I care is IF it happened, we need to find out, and make sure that it never happens again, and we need to punish whoever is responsible...I don't care who that is, they need to be punished

I can see no you don't want to be on the dubious list I put you on, ao you're no longer on it.

once again;

I'd still like to see those who are Americans that don't want to know why there are more votes then voters...who are you?

and I'd like to see those who are Americans that don't want to find out why it is that more votes then voters just happens to be in the precincts where exit polls just happen to be wrong for the first time in history...exit polls are not wrong...exit polls are never wrong.

and those people that don't want to find out why this just happens to be in the precincts where there is no paper trail.

I'd still like to see an American that doesn't want to know the answers to those questions...I've taken unwonted off this list of Americans that don't want to find these things out

but who is on this list?
who are you.

 

[Petros]

Polling the America on OSNN is about as valid as polling 13,000 people out of 120,000,000 and calling it an exit poll, I'd say.

By the way, you must have deeper and more accurate sources than the Ohio state department itself, because they don't show any county going over 100% on votes.

And the exit polls are wrong because the pollsters themselves say so. Check my link to Zogby on the first page. They talk percentages, but they try to obscure the fact that less than 14,000 people were polled nationwide.