Farenheit 9-11 Airs for $9.95; Stolen Honor airs for free

Discussion in 'Green Room' started by Petros, Nov 2, 2004.

  1. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    The men interviewed in Stolen Honor aren't partisan. They are simply extremely upset about the physical torture they endured in anguish while having Kerry's words played back to them. The North Vietnamese used his testimony to try break the will of brave soldiers.

    These men withstood affliction for as many as seven years because they swore not to badmouth their country so that enemies could use it as propaganda. They didn't even need torture to get that out of John Kerry. He admitted it willingly, and you can hear recordings of him doing it, then you get to hear the reactions of the men who were cruelly abused because of it.

    Click to watch
     
  2. Xie

    Xie - geek - Subscribed User Folding Team

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    Then you can ask others that will say the exact opposite. It's great how people will say anything and we can have 2 complete opposite views of the facts on an election year.

    *edit* - It should also be noted that Moore offered his movie for FREE but was shot down due to threats from the crazy folks. Also that $9.95 doesn't go into Moores pocket.
    *edit 2* - The title of this topic should be changed to "just more Kerry bashing" as you didn't even deal with the topic.
     
  3. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    Every prisoner of war that was held at the Hanoi Hilton at that time, Democrat or not, got to hear Kerry.

    I'm not seeing how I didn't deal with the topic. This movie has no speculation, just interviews and playing back of Kerry testimony. This is intelligent discussion, not a flamewar.
     
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  4. Xie

    Xie - geek - Subscribed User Folding Team

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    We've all heard it as well .. your point?
     
  5. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot -=[BOHICA!]=- Political User

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    I am 100% in agreement with Unwonted, there is, was and will never be ANY excuse for a member of the US Military to do what he did. ESPECIALLY an Officer. What he did was tantamount to treason, whether anyone cares to believe it or not. If you want to call this Kerry bashing, so be it, but the bottom line is IT WAS WRONG. How can anyone defend what he did? I truthfully think that his supporters don't have a clue what that meant to the men he may have called "Brothers in Arms". The men in captivity know what it meant, though. I will surely be disappointed in America if this guy gets elected today.
     
  6. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    You know what? Vietnam was 30 years ago, and few of our current politicians have done anything to be proud of. Former Michigan Gov. John Engler (R) got out of Vietnam for being "2 pounds overweight." Nevermind, of course, that basic training should get rid of that "2 pounds" and more. Former VP Dan Quayle, George W. Bush, and a whole slew of wealthy children were put into the National Guard to avoid major combat. Dick Cheney did all he could to avoid being drafted into the war (going to college, then getting married, then having children back-to-back), and, after he was too old to be drafted, spent his first years as a representative, railing against people who avoided the draft--people, ironically enough, like himself. Why don't we have a documentary about Bush's Vietnam days? I'm sure it would be highly embarrassing to show a portrait of a dimwitted drug addict who skated through life on his father's coattails.

    I hope Kerry wins by a landslide.

    Melon
     
  7. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot -=[BOHICA!]=- Political User

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    I agree that many skirted service, some for legitimate, some for not so legitimate reasons. BUT...none of said men above caused more physical pain for the men in Uniform imprisoned in Viet Nam. None had there voices played for propaganda while men were being abused beyond what most Americans, and definitely John Kerry could imagine. None had the gall to claim to toss their medals while condemning the actions of all military personnell as murderous and torturous, then "reclaim" the medals and use them as a basis to get elected. Ask THEM if they forgot about what they endured in the Hanoi Hilton because it was so long ago.

    Win by a landslide? I hope he gets covered by one.

    Sorry if that rubs some the wrong way, but as a Vet, I know how I'd feel if I were the one imprisoned, and I come from a long line of military family and friends..and we all feel tha same way.
     
  8. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    I respect your opinion, so I won't press the issue of military service further. My sole point was to say that our politicians, as a whole, are hardly admirable people when it comes to military service. And for those who have been? Well, Karl Rove et al. made sure to try and pass off former Sen. Max Cleland (D-GA) as being a "traitor," even though he came back with missing limbs. That's more of a sacrifice than Bush or Cheney ever gave.

    I sincerely hope that people are voting for a candidate, based on the totality of his message, rather than just "one-issue." As a voter, I'll admit that Vietnam service records were meaningless on my decision on whom to vote for. It comes down to the economy, it comes down to trust, it comes down to what I think of the administration officials, and it comes down to what kind of vision I want to see over the next four years.

    In my opinion, Bush is a failure all around. I disagree with the motive behind his tax cuts. I hate how he rallies his base by fostering bigotry against homosexuals; I believe it shows very bad character, and we would be awfully embarrassed by such behavior if it were done against black people (like back in the first half of the 20th century). I don't believe he has supported our troops sufficiently. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) went on television to state that our troops are often lacking in armor and other resources, because the GOP Congress has been porking off the funds to their pet projects. Roughly, in his words, they are in denial that there is even a war at all, despite their harsh rhetoric. Actions speak louder than words, and people can say whatever they want, but Bush's actions have been nothing like his words.

    In contrast, I believe that Kerry has a common sense approach to the economy and the war on terrorism. In regards to the latter, we may think we can "go it alone" forever, and, sure, we probably can deal with Iraq and Afghanistan. But those two countries don't control all the world's terrorists. The world has an awfully negative opinion of Bush, and, whether we like that or not, how we are perceived in the world *does* affect our security. We can't even get Europe or Canada to like us, so how do we expect to get the Middle East to like us (and, thus, stop generating anti-U.S. terrorists)?

    In regards to the former, why do we give tax cuts to businesses that outsource their labor? It's true. We're giving tax breaks for Intel and HP to close their American plants and head to India. And what about other nations? God forbid, they give tax incentives for businesses to not only stay within their borders, but to also encourage hiring their own citizens. Thus, for Americans to want to work abroad to escape this crappy economy, it will be virtually impossible, unless you have family that qualifies you as a permanent resident. Thankfully, I do have someone in Canada where I could qualify, and I have thought of it. How did I ever think that I'd want to leave the U.S. just to work? But that's where I think that the Bush Administration is an absolute failure. He is nothing more than a puppet for supply-side economics (which even his father rightfully decried as "voodoo economics"), which thinks of any economic aid solely in terms of "tax cuts." Well, Dubya, the tax cuts have failed...now what? Oil, additionally, does affect our economic growth, but, contrary to what the administration has told us, these high prices have little to do with supply shortages and more to do with his energy policy. How many people know that, while our oil prices are at record highs, Bush is spending our tax dollars to buy this oil at these record prices to fill the Strategic Oil Reserves? At least a quarter of our "oil consumption" is going into these reserves, thus driving up oil prices and stunting our economy. So what does Bush do one week before the election? Release some of the reserves, thus driving down oil prices. Additionally, oil speculators are selling oil on the belief that Kerry will win, have a more prudent oil policy, and foster positive relations (i.e., not blow up) in the Middle East. A Kerry win will contribute to sparking our economy much better than most realize, and, as someone who is currently unemployed, this is my primary voting issue.

    We have the possibility to get a fresh start, and I look forward to the election of President Kerry.

    Melon
     
  9. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot -=[BOHICA!]=- Political User

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    I won't say anything other than I respect your opinion also, and the only point I want to respond to is :
    Politicians, as a whole, are hardly admirable of anything. Period. :D I truly think we need more viable choices in our elections.
     
  10. Johnny

    Johnny .. Commodore .. Political User

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    Fully 100% agree with you on that point .
     
  11. Xie

    Xie - geek - Subscribed User Folding Team

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    Politicians may not be 100% the idle people. Remember though that they are thrown into the public crosshairs and are torn apart about anything and everything. Facts are bent and some things are just made up from 1/2 truths. If given enough funding for "the other side" I'm sure if any of us ran for office we could be made to look just as bad IMO.
     
  12. Glass

    Glass sgàthan ìnnleachd

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    You speak as if Kerry himself was physically torturing American POWs. Kerry simply pointed out the warcrimes he witnessed while he was in Nam. If you were really concerned about the pain the POWs were in, then you would be upset with the Vietnamese. Kerry had nothing to do with it.

    By the way, I hate Kerry just as much as I hate Bush. Nader owns you all!
     
  13. ThePatriot

    ThePatriot -=[BOHICA!]=- Political User

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    Very true.

    Kerry didn't do it firsthand, that is true, but he sure did have a hand in making it worse. He could (and should) have kept his mouth shut until all POW's were home, it's called itegrity. Then and only then should he have aired his criticism intelligently. Instead, he made a dog-and-pony show out of his "medal-tossing". He did it in the wrong place at the wrong time in the wrong context. And yes, the Vietnamese are where the blame lies ultimately.

    And if I thought Nader had a real chance to win, I'd have seriously considered giving him my vote. Or McCain, or Powell, Franks...all viable options. I've said before that I'm not in love with GWB, I just despise Kerry for what he did more.
     
  14. Glass

    Glass sgàthan ìnnleachd

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    Bush became the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record and is the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner, he was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war and refused to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use, has at at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (His Texas driving record has been erased and is not available), appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any other president in US history, after taking the entire month of August off for vacation presided over the worst security failure in US history, cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history, became the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy, presided over the biggest energy crisis in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed, spent the US surplus and bankrupted the US treasury, presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world, became the first president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the general international community, signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history, dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history, created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the US, became the first president in US history to compel the United Nations to remove the US from the Human Rights Commission and Elections Monitoring Board, withdrew from the World Court Of Law, removed more checks and balances and had the least congressional oversight of any presidential administration in US history, refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war effectively violating the Geneva Conventions, became the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 elections, spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history, changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts, removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history, became the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1) and set the records for...

    (A) the biggest annual deficit in history
    (B) the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period
    (C) the biggest drop in the history of the stock market
    (D) the most campaign fundraising trips by any president in US history
    (E) the most real estate foreclosures in any 12-month period
    (F) the most corporate campaign donations in the world
    (G) the most days on vacation by any president in US history (in his first year in office!)
    (H) fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of TV
    (I) largest number of administration appointees who violated US laws by not selling their huge investments in corporations that later made bids for government contracts
    (J) most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets in protest of him (15 million people) shattering the record for protest against any person in history
    (K) the most secretive and unaccountable presidency in US history
    (L) members of his cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history
    (M) biggest annual budget spending increases in US history

    Remember Kenneth Lay? CEO of Enron? You know, the guy who presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history? He is one of George W. Bush's best friends, which makes perfect sense, seeing as how he is Bush's largest lifetime campaign contributor.

    Did you know that 71% of Europe's population voted George W. Bush the 'single greatest threat to world peace and stabilty?'

    Let's not forget Bush's ties to the Bin Ladin family, the exploitation of 9/11 to enforce outrageous new laws (We have not seen anything like the Patriot Act since Nazi Germany) and garner support for the invasion of one nation, then blatantly make sh|t up to garner support for the unjust invasion of yet another sovereign nation, and then make up new reasons to replace the old, exposed ones.

    All records of Bush's tenure as governor of Texas have been removed to his father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. All records of all SEC investagations into Bush's insider trading and bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. All minutes of meetings of any public corporations for which Bush served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. Any records or minutes from meetings Bush and/or Dick Cheney attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

    Oh and by the way, Bush cut health-care benefits for war veterans. But you hate Kerry more because he exposed warcrimes while there were American POWs in Nam. Interesting.
     
  15. Xie

    Xie - geek - Subscribed User Folding Team

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    Are we sure all the POW's are home now, or would have been anyways? I would think during a war would be the best time to speak out against it and maybe help resolve the matter. If you wait, how long do you wait? How many soldiers do you let die before you stand up and say enough is enough?
     
  16. Glass

    Glass sgàthan ìnnleachd

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    I myself have never quite understood why it is wrong to expose warcrimes just because there are some prisoners in the country the warcrimes were commited in. Does that mean it's OK to commit warcrimes as long as there are some prisoners in the possession of the opposing forces? Would you react the same way to an Arab whistleblower who exposed warcrimes of the Taliban or Iraqi insurgents because there are POWs in Cuba and various Iraqi prisons such as Abu Grahib? Do you see the hypocrisy here?
     
  17. loki

    loki OSNN Junior Addict

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    Just a quick comment from my part. First: No offence meant here, absolutely not, but...well this is probably the most silly thing I have ever read on this forum. I know this is no place for politics-debates, but I think some of you americans still haven't understood the principle of voting. Ok, let me explain, nice and slowly:

    1) You vote for the one you would like to be president, period. If he/she has any chance of winning is not of your concern.
    2) If you do vote for another one, you are voting for the wrong one and waste your opportunity to vote for the right one.
    3) If lots of people think "i'm voting for the one who is likely going to win", then it gets dangerous. You know, this isn't exactly the lottery. You can't win lots of money by picking the right numbers here. You should pick the one *you* want to be president, it's just as simple! Btw, do you know that voting for Bush/Kerry even if you would like to vote for Nader actually even deprives Nader of having a chance? Jeez, you americans :)
    (again: no offense meant. what i read here just sadly fits the european cliché about americans: Blindly running behind the pack, having no clue what is really going on, no look spared to your right of your left, just follow the leader, even if he runs towards a disaster etc. Sorry for that but some of you are responsible for that negative image we have of you in general. I'm not saying that you ARE like that or that there aren't lots of people who aren't like that, okay?)

    Hope Kerry wins!
    (Well Bush wasn't elected last time and still got to be president....)

    :)
     
  18. j79zlr

    j79zlr Glaanies script monkey Political User

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    Actually Bush was elected. He also was not the first to be elected without the popular vote. 2% reporting, Bush - 39, Kerry - 3; 231 to go! BTW Bush 57%, Kerry 42%
     
  19. Xie

    Xie - geek - Subscribed User Folding Team

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    Funny what 5mins can do (though far from accurate) but 77-66 Kerry now. :p
     
  20. Glass

    Glass sgàthan ìnnleachd

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    I believe Bush will retain office, but I think we have seen the last legitimate election that America will ever have. The new electronic voting machines are only going to become more popular, and they are way too susceptible to monkey business, especially with people like Katherine Harris around, the fukking wench. Not to mention the founder and CEO of Diebold, the largest manufacturer of electronic voting machines, who has publicly stated he "wants George W. Bush to remain president and would do anything to ensure it."

    The only hope America has for a fair vote is 100% paper ballots redundantly tallied up by the UN, an independent internal organization, and oh, let's say Poland, Switzerland, and Canada.