Originally posted by kitct
We can't help that China and N.Korea already have nuc's.We don't want to wait for Iraq to be added to that list.
Yes other nations have wmd but they are quite open about it.That means they hope to use them as leverage,as a deterrant."Don't step on me,if you do,I could nuke you."
There is only one reason that a nation develops them secretly.That is to USE them.
In other words,don't fear the nations that are open about them.Fear the ones that are secret about them.
You don't think that we have found a smoking gun?No wmd?Read this: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-ijaz041003.asp
The only people who do not see these things are people who cannot or will not see them. For the antiwar movement consists not of thinkers but of true believers; indeed, it's more akin to a religious cult than a political cause, hoist on tenets of faith rather than points of evidence - and, thus, in the final analysis, no more responsive to counterarguments than guys who stand on street corners in sandwich boards forecasting the end of the world next weekend . . . no, next weekend . . . no, next weekend.
As the Iraqi people rise up to cheer the American troops, the true believers will claim the scenes are staged. As chemical and biological weapons are uncovered, the true believers will claim they were planted. As an interim government is established, the true believers will claim it's a puppet for American interests. As the oil wealth of Iraq is translated into prosperity for the people, the true believers will claim American companies are hogging profits.
To view this as mere idiocy would be wrong. People who believe such things are, in reality, clinging to their faith, clinging to a set of beliefs that infuses their lives with meaning, that connects them to a higher purpose, that makes them feel a part of something larger than themselves.
It's a constant, uphill struggle to maintain this particular faith in light of the manifest truth that America is the most benevolent world power in the history of the planet. The antiwar movement, thus, should be ignored, or pitied, or even ridiculed, but not condemned too harshly.
Like the rest of us, true believers are entitled to their pursuit of happiness. :blink:
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our history or regime change... like in all other history... precedence means something
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the us has been involved in 14 regime changes since 1953
I will list them in chronological order...
1953 : iran.. elected president removed from power by us led coup... with help from the brits... us friendly shah installed in power.. later overthrown by islamic fundamentalists... we all know what happened next
1954 : guatemala.. cia-organized coup topples guatemalan president in favor of military government that SUPPRESSES opposition... until democracy returns in 1986... effectively a state of civil war till 1996
1960 : congo... the elected president (hmm... we have a pattern) is assasinated following a us/belgian coup... because his government had some soviet backing... joseph sese seko mobutu is installed and rules for 32 years... I am sure we have ALL heard of him... a corrupt dictator of a magnitude few have achieved...
1961 : cuba... bay of pigs... failed attempt to overthrow castro's 2 year old communist government... sanctions imposed then are more or less in effect even today
1965 : Dominican republic... coup returns ousted president to power... in order not to repeat a cuba like fiasco.. us backs a military leader who is intermittently in charge till 1996... one of the better undertakings thus far...
1973: Chile... us funds coup against the president of the nation and installs pinochet.. who rules for 17 years and undertakes countless human rights abuses (he was willing to kill people for the sake of free trade... a true capitalist)
1983: Grenada... invaded by reagan administration after a coup had installed military leaders in power.. us executes Bishop.. the leader of the coup... mainly because of growing links to Cuba and a friendlier (to the US) administration is installed...
1986 : US bombers attack libya.. killing 101 people.. incl muamar qaddafi's offspring when his compound is attacked... 1988 lockerbie incident where libyan complicity is suspected... sanctions imposed... qaddafi called a terrorist... 2 men charged... 1 man convicted in 2001 of the bombing...
1986: phillipines... us persuades holding of elections in the nation and then urges marcos to step aside and accept exile in hawaii... corazon acquino elected... military leader fidel ramos elected in 1992... us withdraws from its military bases there...
1989 : manuel noriega arrested after invasion by US of panama... supposedly for drug charges... anyone following the case would know this was a shambles and the drug charges were never concrete.. nor was the evidence from the 20 odd convicts who were granted leniency for testifying @ his trial... a more western friendly president installed... he had won a previous election... transition to democracy.. economic reforms bugger the nation...
1992 : somalia... american led Un forces attempts to capture.. mohammad farrah aided... leave 1 year later.. can't really be termed with the rest... but was pushed through the un by the us... so its here...
1994 : haiti... jean bertrand aristide is re-installed to power after a coup deposes him.. democracy restored... succesful for a time... falls back into buggered state a short while after us withdrawl...
1999: yugoslavia... us led UN/nato operations help the civilian popular uprising in ousting slobodan milosevic... currently facing war crimes charges.. currently nation is rebuilding well...
2001: afghanistan... us cia trained taliban militia government overthrown for failing to capture/hold/turn over suspects in 9/11 terrorist attack in the us... semi democractic government installed but lawlessness and chaos continue...
2003 : Iraq ???
overall track record?
most often times things have not gone according to plan... and many leaders were toppled for no more practical reason than apparent paranoia on the part of members either of the us government or the CIA... eg... iran/panama... amongst others...
how will iraq fare? we shall have to wait and see.. unfortunately...
history is not always incorrect... and we often times do look to the past @ history to guide... rummy keeps claiming this is one of the greatest military actions in history... discounting rather interestingly the exploits of lads in WW I and II... napolean/hanibal/alexander the great/philip II/scipio africanus...
THOSE men all lead military expeditions which are unmatched... their military prowess brilliant (no matter what your thoughts of napolean.. he was one of the greatest generals of all time)...
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there is only one reason a country develops a WMD... for DEFENSIVE purposes.. the logic of making one WMD and then threatening other countries does not really work...
concerning the list of smoking gun type thingers
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I personally don't think there should be difficulty in finding WMD's in iraq... heck if we have information where saddam is moving around... we should have information on where WMD's are stored... I am however going to be realistic... we have had too many false positives to be absolutely sure... not till we come back with high tech lab tests which show it to be beyond a shadow of a doubt... the burden of proof is on us...
the anti-war movement recognizes the actions conducted by various countries in the name of national security in the past.. and the regime changes of the past... the anti-war movement also recognizes the many thousands of civilians in hospitals... suffering with no medication or lack of help.. their family members working round the clock to provide them with rudmintery health care to save a limb or a life... they recognize the realities of the war... I am sure there are many who have a different agenda... I am a pacifist.. and the suffering of the civilians/troops is the main reason I was opposed to the war in the first place... might is not a way to achieve peace... peace achieved through warfare is hardly ever tranquil...
