SLI and CrossFire, Pushing Power Supplies To The Limit

Performance is not the issue gonaads. The issue is all about clean current. The cleaner and more efficient the setup, the less stress on the system and the longer the overall life expectancy of ALL components.

I've had a good quality antec just die on me and freak the crap out of me so I am a little paranoid about these things :D
 
gonaads said:
One other thing to take into account is the strands of the wire itself. Stranded wire is by it's nature, compressable. It deforms to provide a high-reliabilty, high contact area connection. For vibration prone, and flexing applications. Technically speaking, stranded can carry more current than solid wire. Now you could have two top PSU manufacturers and one has 12 strands per wire. Then you have the other and their's has 20 strands per wire. Who's is going to be the better? Now throw this into the equation. The one with 12 strands is 16 AWG wire and the one with 20 strands is 14 AWG. Now which one conducts better?

Remember the small the wire the more resistance but if there are more strands then what?

Also current is moving electrons, they travel "through" the conductor and along the surface of the conductor. They move along the surface better because it is easier, so more current is distributed along the surface areas than in the center. Stranded conductors have a lot more surface area so they can carry more current for a given overall diameter. So, back to my question, The one with 12 strands is 16 AWG wire and the one with 20 strands is 14 AWG. Now which one conducts better? So If a modular PSU uses a more stranded wire setup that say a non modular PSU then would the resistance values still be the same?

More "surface", more current flow, and more heat dissipation (current flow creates heat) and less resistance and less voltage drop. Heat creates resistance.

I tried not to respond to this but..

Bull**** -
1) The characteristic you are talk around is called skin effect. It only applies at very high frequencies (radio frequencies) or very high current density (power transmission lines). At the power density in PC PSUs skin effect is negligible.

This link is almost in English but it is incomplete because it only talks about the frequency dependency of skin effect. At ultra high current densities even audio frequencies can exhibit skin effect. Note the table at the bottom of the link. At 1000Hz and less skin the depth is 0.2 CM which is much greater than the 18 AWG wire diameter so skin effect is non-existent.
http://home.san.rr.com/nessengr/techdata/skin/skindepth.html

Increasing the number of strands in a wire only improves skin effect if the individual strands are insulated from each other (the strands in PSU wires are not coated with varnish to insulate them). This is called Litz wire and is used in high frequency / high power applications. If the strands are not insulated they are all pressed together and form one big conductor with no skin effect improvement.
http://www.mwswire.com/litzmain.htm

3) Wire has a number stamped on it, in the case of a PC PSU it is 18AWG for the power wires, except for the -5V. That stands for American Wire Gauge. That number defines the electrical characteristic of the wire carrying DC/50Hz/60Hz, at the specified current density and it does not matter how many starnds are in the wire. If the resistance of the wire is lower they put a lower AWG number on it and charge more.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
Wire can be 18AWG with 6 strands (what we use at work) or 18AWG with 20 strands (in a PC cable I just pulled apart) but the current carrying capacity and resistance per foot is the same and defined by the AWG rating. Check some wire manufacturer web sites.

4) Using finely stranded wire is done for:
a)mechanical robustness (the finer strands undergo less mechanical compression and therefore less work hardening and embrittlement)
b) and improved bend radius (more strands makes wire more flexible which is why the PC PSU cables use such fine strands).
You would not be able to bend a cable bundle of 18AWG, 6 strand wires within the confined spaces of your PC to reach the connectors.

Finding a tech link about section 4) subject is left as an exercise for the student. (They were all on steel cable construction and I got bored looking so find your own on copper wire construction vs strength and flexibility.)
 
LeeJend said:
3) Wire has a number stamped on it, in the case of a PC PSU it is 18AWG for the power wires, except for the -5V. That stands for American Wire Gauge. That number defines the electrical characteristic of the wire carrying DC/50Hz/60Hz, at the specified current density and it does not matter how many starnds are in the wire. If the resistance of the wire is lower they put a lower AWG number on it and charge more.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that AWG was for designating wire diameter.

If the resistance of the wire is lower they put a lower AWG number on it and charge more.
Really? Then how would they justify the diameter of the wire if it's measured? I mean, it you work with wire on a daily basis then you can tell the difference.

And yes, I screwed up with the skin effect as to multistrand wire errrr, Litz wire. Been a long long time since I had to rewind armatures and starter windings. God I use to hate that. You couldn't nick any wire for fear of removing it's coating. Glad now we just get remans. or OEM new. Anyway...
 
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gonaads said:
Really? Then how would they justify the diameter of the wire if it's measured? I mean, it you work with wire on a daily basis then you can tell the difference.

And yes, I screwed up with the skin effect as to multistrand wire errrr, Litz wire. Been a long long time since I had to rewind armatures and starter windings. God I use to hate that. You couldn't nick any wire for fear of removing it's coating. Glad now we just get remans. or OEM new. Anyway...
There are some banded wires that are made flat that have a resistance rating of 16AWG and 14AWG, granted I have only seen these as part of speaker runs but they do exist.
 
But that's the thing, AWG is not a resistance rating. Granted that there's an Ohms per 1000 ft spec but it still has to do with wire diameter. But LeeJend will chime in on this as to what is what.
 
gonaads said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that AWG was for designating wire diameter.


Really? Then how would they justify the diameter of the wire if it's measured? I mean, it you work with wire on a daily basis then you can tell the difference.

And yes, I screwed up with the skin effect as to multistrand wire errrr, Litz wire. Been a long long time since I had to rewind armatures and starter windings. God I use to hate that. You couldn't nick any wire for fear of removing it's coating. Glad now we just get remans. or OEM new. Anyway...

In order.

Ok, you are wrong. Diameter of wire is meaningless. The only thing that matters is the current rating and voltage rating. AWG specifies current rating which translates to the cross sectional area of copper. If you check the links I posted you can see that in the AWG tables. They show cross sectional area and resistance per foot.

Wire "diameter" varies drastically with number of strands, insulation material and voltage rating. Solid (single strand is the thinnest then the diameter goes up until the strands start getting really fine, then diameter goes down as the packing factor (less wasted space between strands) improves.

You were close on the multistranded. You just didn't know that it had to have each wire individually insulated to be of value. Most people have never even heard about the frequency and current density effect on wire resistance.

Uck, motor rewinding. That's worse than winding transformers.
 
*Sigh*

I hate to get in the middle of arguements like this but LeeJend you are DEAD wrong on one point..

I have a background in EE coming from the Navys Advanced eletronics field and have worked in electronics/ telecommunictaions for over 16 years... it has nothing to do with the voltage/amperage directly.. the AWG stamp itself is ONLY the size of the wire... thus if you buy a wire stripper for 18 AWG it strips ONLY 18 AWG Wire solid or stranded, you will find they are both the exact same size... the corolation from the voltage and amperage rating is proportinate to the size of the wire because the resistance of that wire determines how many Amps can run through the wire before it burns-out /through.

Look back at your own Link...

Seen HERE again...
 
Next victim please.

*Sits back to watch*

refreshment.gif
 
Hmmm, that's the link I posted when I started this. :confused:
 
lol

It's been a long week.

I was going through anandtech and they had a "newish" link so I was like, oh lemme check it out.
 
:p

You are forgiven.


*runs* Weeeeeeeeeeee
 
I wonder in financial terms exactly how much a 1000w psu would cost to run, as in what it would add to your electricity bill.
 
The psu typically doesn't draw much more power than needed to run your system. In the case of the PC P&C product, since it is so much more efficient than most other psu's, you're added increased cost would not be that much more.
 
This is why I cannot upgrade my video card. I bought a fanless power supply, but its only 350W. Is there an external power supply I could use to run a 400W required gforce 7800 AGP?
 
jimi_81 said:
This is why I cannot upgrade my video card. I bought a fanless power supply, but its only 350W. Is there an external power supply I could use to run a 400W required gforce 7800 AGP?

A SINGLE 7800GT does not require 400W

I dont know where you got that idea from, but it should be only slightly more than 120W... PER 7800GT and thats OVERCLOCKED, and running at max... normal operation is only about 80W

See HERE...
 
True, but remember all the other hardware that will need power. You have to calculate the max power draw for each item (MoBo, fans, "add-on cards", CPU, video card, etc...). Then you would have a good "ballpark" figure as to what you could need. But this would be nominal.
 
gonaads said:
True, but remember all the other hardware that will need power. You have to calculate the max power draw for each item (MoBo, fans, "add-on cards", CPU, video card, etc...). Then you would have a good "ballpark" figure as to what you could need. But this would be nominal.

Yea but he was reffering to running only the video card..

I wonder what his system specs are...

then you can do the power consumption in total to see if he can run on his 350...

I was running a 350W before I decided I needed to run a RAID setup with my Raptors...
 
jimi_81 said:
This is why I cannot upgrade my video card. I bought a fanless power supply, but its only 350W. Is there an external power supply I could use to run a 400W required gforce 7800 AGP?

You might be able to setup a config with 2 psu's if you really want to. It might actually give you a cleaner signal to the graphics card. Figure out how you want to rig it up and you should be good to go.

Some of the solutions actually have an external power connector, if you get teh dual-gpu (on one card) solution that's been demoed. Don't know if you can buy it off the shelf though.
 

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