Yeah I agree .. bad move. We can spread "freedom" and then kill earth so we all die .. great!Geffy said:not really going to get very much involved in this, but I am still pissed at the Bush Administration for pulling the US out of the Kyoto Agreement
So America is flying around in a superman cape rescuing all the poor souls and no one appreciates this. Right.vern said:Funny how the world criticizes us for involving ourselves in their business when just half a century ago, they were criticizing us for not caring. Funny how people criticize the military when their whole way of life exists solely because we do our jobs, Americans and the armed forces of many countries.
Unwonted said:Bush has not banned gay marriage. The people of the United States have, even in states with large homosexual populations. See how the citizens soundly passed laws defining marriage as "one man and one woman" in eleven states? And those laws have passed very soundly, I might add. It's an issue that crosses party lines.
Whats it matter? I love how everyone (Bush supporters) are still like "take that michael moore". Forgive the man for trying to make America think. Forgive the man for getting people to vote. Why does it matter where he is now? This isn't a sporting event .. why do people treat it as one? Why do we need to throw it in the losers face?Tuffgong4 said:where is Michael Moore anyway?
He worked for Nader in 2000, begged Nader not to run in 2004 and now he is no where to be found
Very well said. Just because a voting majority agrees with something, it doesn't mean it's right. When you're dealing with Americans in fact, it's more likely the exact opposite.melon said:The rights of homosexuals should never have been up for a vote, because, frankly, the United States does not have a good track record with voluntary human rights. Despite all the bombastic nationalist rhetoric, we'll always be dragged kicking and screaming into expanding human rights.
I think the definition of Freedom is way too long and complex to be put here, but my abbreviated version would be: The ability or the power to think, to say, to act the way one so chooses AND the willingness to do it within the structured moral environment we know as society. To be able to do as one pleases and to accept the responsibility and consequences for such power. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. "Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way" is a quote attributed to Thomas Paine, but also happen to be my old Army Units motto, which is why I use it.loki said:Do you imply that these people are protesting against freedom? No i'm just kidding, nevermind But a very interesting question is this: what exactly is freedom? Go ahead and give us your definition. I don't want a historical reasoning here (like, you have freedom because we freed you), but just what you understand in the notion of freedom. Could be very interesting.
On the other hand, while you seem to be very proud that the US have given freedom and freedom of speech to many countries, why do you feel offended when someone uses exactly that right to criticise you and your ideologies? So as far as I understand, the US concept of freedom is: you can be as free as you want, as long as you comply with our ideologies. Or to put it in other words: everyone in this world is equal...but some are more equal than others. Or even differently: lead, follow of get out of the way.
I know most countries appreciate us, I know it's not a blanket excuse for everything. I respect your opinion and I'm simply using my Freedom to disagree with you. I don't look to start arguments, I do however crave intelligent conversation with intellingent people, which is why I frequent OSNN. Bush may be a mistake, but IMO not as big as Kerry. I really dont see nukes coming to play in this.loki said:I know the US isn't all that bad, mind. I love you guys for freeing our small country (luxembourg) from these damn Nazies half a century ago! We'd all be Nazies if you hadn't. However, you can't excuse everything you do now with that! Bush is a mistake, a risk, possibly the biggest threat to global peace...and i MEAN global, consdering the number of nukes he has to toy with.
I have my reservations about the system, but it worked correctly on Nov 2nd, at least the mechanics of it. Maybe everyones candidate didn't win, but the process went well regardless.loki said:Btw: Only yesterday, a german news-group asked a couple of thousand people just whether they think that the election system in the US is a farce. Guess what, 82% said yes. Can't give you a source, it was posted on teletext of pro7. Their homepage is www.pro7.de but you probably won't find it there.
I don't expect anyone to love Americans, just appreciate what we did and give us the benefit of the doubt that we will keep our checks and balances operating, and we as a people won't let the nation stray too far off the trail. Singing the national anthem in scool is a GREAT thing to do. It is not brainwashing, it is bringing focus to something that many people fought and died for and put us where we are today. It should NEVER be something to be subdued or forgotten. But again, the rules of society come into play. We must have the moral obligation to repeat those words, but not let them give us a false sense of having carte blance to step over the moral laws of society.loki said:Anyway, despite the fact that Bush was 're-elected', i just want to make it clear: I love americans! i owe them pretty much everything i have and the kind of freedom i am happy to have. The reason why i am so much against so many things posted here is just because I care and believe that you guys are fooled by the authorities. Singing the national anthem in school is a horrible thing to do for example. If that's not brainwashing, what else is then? I refer to the Hitlerjugend in Nazideutschland...it started exactly like that. I am just concerned.
I think the definition of Freedom is way too long and complex to be put here, but my abbreviated version would be: The ability or the power to think, to say, to act the way one so chooses AND the willingness to do it within the structured moral environment we know as society. To be able to do as one pleases and to accept the responsibility and consequences for such power.
I really dont see nukes coming to play in this.
but the process went well regardless.
Singing the national anthem in scool is a GREAT thing to do. It is not brainwashing, it is bringing focus to something that many people fought and died for and put us where we are today.
No society should impose moral obligations towards itself, period.We must have the moral obligation to repeat those words
if you had left out 'of society' it'd be the first one to agree. What about common-sense?but not let them give us a false sense of having carte blance to step over the moral laws of society.
Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe. I really dont want to get into that argument again, it is pointless now. We will leave when the country is stable enough to do so and not fall into anarchy. They will be free to choose whatever type of rule they wish, as long as it's not a threat to the region, as it was. That's the way we've always done it. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes it gets you. My motto applies to many non-military situations (put it in a business situation, for example). I'm really not concerned who has a problem with it. I fought under it, I live under it, I live by it, I'm American.loki said:Yep, true, 'freedom as a concept is very complex and difficult. In this way, ridding Iraq of Saddam was a good thing to do, but still, it was based on lies ('they are helping terrorists...) and treachery on your own people. Now that he is gone (oh, has anyone heard of him recently? What's going on with 'the world's biggest terrorist'?), from my point of view the american's mission in Iraq is over. You helped the people, thanks, now leave and let them manage. Oh, why not? Ah because then a new major force would rise and overthrow the newly established government while hating the US even more? Ah, so now you realize what you got yourself into... The problem is this: while you stay, you make people unhappy and force a whole country to change their ways as you see fit and when you leave, you'll have more bred potential terrorists because of what you did. Know why the time after WW2 went so 'well' for Europe? Because you freed us and left us enough freedom to get organized, then left. You remained in DDR, along with the Russians, which led to the Cold War. You see, the problem with your definition of freedom is that it's absolutely true, however, it does not nearly come close to what the US are doing down in Iraq and in Afghanistan. As for human rights...don't even get me started. Your 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'-motto is fine in a squad where everyone's life is at stake, but it's not enough as a political idea (if you didn't have that flag under it, i'd have no problem with it).
Backpack nukes have been around since I was in the service(enlisted in the mid-80's). They're nothing new. No, I really don't think anyone is going to use nukes.loki said:Hm, ok then, did you know that Bush actually funds a project in US-Army to develop mini-nukes? Yep, that's right, they want to build micro-versions of real nukes that have the same blast-power but lack the amount of radioactive fallout. Now that the world has finally begun to destroy the 30000 nukes that once were in existence, he funds a project like that.... And something else: at Bush's first 'election', did you dream you'd be soon at war with Afghanistan and Iraq? No? And now you don't think nukes would come into play sooner or later?
I don't come to OSNN to flame, despite whoever believes that. Just as you do, I come here for intelligent conversation. But sometimes it just gets me going
Why "so much for it went well"? There are no major problems. Better than 115 million people voted this year. We use 5 or 6 different types of machines, some dating back decades. They're doing the best they can(have you looked at a US map lately?)loki said:In reality, the process of counting is still not over. so much for it went well. Here in my country, we cannot choose to vote, we have to. they count 400.000 votes in less than 7 hours, and you can't tell me the US can't do it any quicker....
Well, simply put...that is "European Mentality" at work. That is why Great Britan distances herself from Europe, and that is why we repeatedly have to pull Europe's ass out of the fire time and time again. A National Anthem and brainwashing can be the same thing, but can also be two entirely seperate entities. I like to think America has, and will continue to believe the latter. Yes, there are plenty of Americans who dont know where Washington DC is, nevermind Iraq. No argument there.loki said:No, it's a horrible thing. I know many americans have died for how the world is shaped now and that we shouldn't forget that. In Nazideutschland, this was sadly enough the exact same idea behind 'deutschland deutschland über alles' (Germany Germany above all). If you grow up your child telling him or her each day that bananas are blue and dangerous, it's going to believe that sooner or later, and whenever it sees one it'll think 'it's blue and dangerous'. See, the trouble with ideologies and nationalisms like these is that they get stuffed into people's brains and makes them unable to sees their faults. I know of not a single school in Europe where they sing a national anthem, even though many people of their country have died in wars. It's explicitly forbidden as far as i know. the big laugh about that is that we Europeans in general know a lot more of the world and it's history than you americans do. Oh i'm just telling you what i know. Whenever i meet an american and talk about politics and history with him/her, i can't believe how little he'she actually knows, and i'm not only talking about europe. The only history you know better than I do (usually), is the american one and that's it. America above all...does it ring a bell? Sad thing that the majority of the US population can't even point out Iraq on a map.
Wrong. Morals are imposed on us daily and for good reason. Most of the laws we abide by are based on moral values, and without them we would certainly degrade into one of the current "repressive" or "oppresive"loki said:No society should impose moral obligations towards itself, period.
Ok, common sense works too.loki said:if you had left out 'of society' it'd be the first one to agree. What about common-sense?
Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe.
Yep, I agreeI really dont want to get into that argument again, it is pointless now.
...based on whose opinion? Actually i believe (read that somewhere in both a french and german newspaper i think) there are more people getting killed in Iraq (excluding us troops) than there were before the US intervention...We will leave when the country is stable enough to do so and not fall into anarchy. They will be free to choose whatever type of rule they wish, as long as it's not a threat to the region, as it was.
That's the way we've always done it. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes it gets you.
My motto applies to many non-military situations (put it in a business situation, for example). I'm really not concerned who has a problem with it.
I fought under it, I live under it, I live by it, I'm American.
Backpack nukes have been around since I was in the service(enlisted in the mid-80's). They're nothing new. No, I really don't think anyone is going to use nukes.
Why "so much for it went well"? There are no major problems. Better than 115 million people voted this year. We use 5 or 6 different types of machines, some dating back decades. They're doing the best they can(have you looked at a US map lately?)
Well, simply put...that is "European Mentality" at work. That is why Great Britan distances herself from Europe, and that is why we repeatedly have to pull Europe's ass out of the fire time and time again.
A National Anthem and brainwashing can be the same thing, but can also be two entirely seperate entities. I like to think America has, and will continue to believe the latter. Yes, there are plenty of Americans who dont know where Washington DC is, nevermind Iraq. No argument there.
Wrong. Morals are imposed on us daily and for good reason. Most of the laws we abide by are based on moral values, and without them we would certainly degrade into one of the current "repressive" or "oppresive"
regimes we so despise and seek to end.
One of our most important moral obligations as a free society is to guard and to propagate freedom.
Ok, common sense works too.
I'd be interested to know what those in the UK saw on TV (or other media) about these "WMD". I remember watching the presentation on TV to Congress and saying to myself "WTF? .. thats a couple of 18-wheelers..." and thats about the extent of what these crazy satellite photo's showed. He then showed some vials that were to contain anthrax, as it was the big thing at the time, and said that Iraq probably had tons of it and just a bit could be put into the air and kill millions. I have no idea how based on this info we allowed our troops to invade Iraq. Why not send inspectors to check the locations of these "WMD" or anthrax .. I mean we knew right were it was .. we had satellite photo's! I just think with the extreme lack of info and then extreme overhype of this info it was all but lies as they really had no idea what Iraq had and just wanted to get Saddam out. Anyhoo </rant>.ThePatriot said:Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe.
I know .. and what did they find is my point.Sazar said:xie... the inspectors were on the ground checking up till right before the invasion...
they checked at many of the locations they were asked to check as well..
Grandmaster said: