Do we need a National ID Card?

[Perris Calderon]

Ben Franklin would probably also be shocked that gays were attempting to gain marriage rights and not running from angry mobs. He would be amazed at the Judiciary and how they can defeat hundreds of lawmakers with a single decision. He would be appalled that taxes were so incredibly high, and that we borrowed an income tax system from Karl Marx. The man who once said "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" would be shocked that people who do neither and choose not to work can still collect a paycheck and eat until they're fat.

I don't think invoking the name of Ben Franklin is a good idea in this matter.

you aren't serious, are you?

you think ben franklin wouldn't be for equal rights for everyone?, that people with a (possibly) differant sexual preferance then he has would not be considered equal according to the law in this land?

ha

and you think he want's a new constitutional definition for the word "marriage" just to make the new theocrats that are now running our government happy?

ha

and you think he would want people that have earned their keep in the u.s. would starve if they couldn't work?

ha

and you think taxes are incredibly high according to what standard?

and you think that a judge should not be able to strike down idiots making laws that fly in the face of our founding fathers great vision?

ha

me thinks you are listened too long to the new conolidated media big bussiness spin machine

 

[Petros]

me thinks you are listened too long to the new conolidated media big bussiness spin machine

And note I never EVER said people who COULDN'T work, I very explicitly said "choose not to". Never misquote me to twist my words to your point; I will call you on it every time

 

[Perris Calderon]

I missed my post above. The bill this was attached to a "support our troops bill" and passed yesterday 100-0.

we live in troublesome times

I wonder if America will ever regain it's lofty goals set forth by our for fathers...I wonder

 

[Petros]

we live in troublesome times

I wonder if America will ever regain it's lofty goals set forth by our for fathers...I wonder

I wonder if you will ever stop citing dead people.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I wonder if you will ever stop citing dead people.

why would anyone stop siting dead people?

 

[IDLE]

How much perspective do you have to support that statement?

i.e. How many countries have you lived in?

that is true, i havent been in any other country except canada...but the fact that the goverment is keeping us from being free. cant express your self, cant do anything w/o someone knowing what you are doing. people are screwed if they say something "bad" on cable. i hear worse words at work.

the damn goverment took away the super size from Mcdonalds! wtf! yes i know people are getting fat...but come on. if people want to die at 40 let them. its their problem.

 

[Perris Calderon]

And note I never EVER said people who COULDN'T work, I very explicitly said "choose not to". Never misquote me to twist my words to your point; I will call you on it every time

there is allready remedy in the law for those people, so you must be talking about people that have earned their keep

 

[Petros]

Might I clarify that I meant "Citing dead people for things they did not feel or say, as if they were alive now (which they very much aren't). The reason I said Ben Franklin would be shocked about gays attempting marriage rights and not getting mobbed was that's how gays were treated back then. The reason I mentioned taxes is because taxes were low then. You can't make up the feelings of the forefathers when they aren't here with us to feel them.

The national ID card is coming. Compliance, civil disobedience, discussion, revolt, or emigration are your options.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Might I clarify that I meant "Citing dead people for things they did not feel or say, as if they were alive now (which they very much aren't). The reason I said Ben Franklin would be shocked about gays attempting marriage rights and not getting mobbed was that's how gays were treated back then. The reason I mentioned taxes is because taxes were low then. You can't make up the feelings of the forefathers when they aren't here with us to feel them.

The national ID card is coming. Compliance, civil disobedience, discussion, revolt, or emigration are your options.

I understand why you said what you said

I don't site people in that sense, I quoted ben frankllin for exactly how he felt

you sited him in an opinion of what he might feel in todays times, I took issue with you

so, stop siting people for feelingfs they didn't have, and we'll both be fine with that thought of yours.

now

you think ben franklin wouldn't be for equal rights for everyone including people with a differant inclination then he might have had?

and taxes were low then as they are now relative to the rest of the world

 

[Petros]

I understand why you said what you said

do you think ben franklin wouldn't be for equal rights for everyone including people with a differant inclination then he might have had?

and taxes were low then as they are now relative to the rest of the world

I cannot speculate on Ben Franklin's feelings. He is dead.

 

[lancer]

I really can't understand what the **** you're all talking about aren't drivers licenses exactly the same thing.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I cannot speculate on Ben Franklin's feelings. He is dead.

you were the one that brought to speculate on his feelings, I quoted his thoughts on this issue as he for saw it might arise

he was correct in that vision

got to go

 

[Petros]

I really can't understand what the **** you're all talking about aren't drivers licenses exactly the same thing.

This one goes a little deeper, requiring it to obtain government services. Really, it's just designed to make it easier to deny illegal immigrants/terrorists common services afforded to nationals. If you don't show this card or a visa or some document that proves you have a legal right to be here, well, you don't. Try going to Korea without a passport or ID sometime...hope you like kimchi in jail : )

I'm just joking though; I see your point. Drivers licenses contain essentially the same information.

 

[Petros]

you were the one that brought to speculate on his feelings, I quoted his thoughts on this issue as he for saw it might arise

he was correct in that vision

got to go

All those things I quoted about Franklin were my opinions represented as though they were Ben Franklins; I was demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

Pay special attention to the words "if", "I think" and "I wonder" below, since they refer to your speculation of feelings that you cannot possibly know he felt. I implore you to look back through the thread and note that you were the first to cite Ben Franklin's feelings on the matter, and I, on the other hand, was not.

I'll tell you what...if Ben franklin saw how apathetic people were regarding this issue, I'm pretty sure he would wonder just what country he was looking at...I think he would be certain it wasn't America.

however the theocrats that are taking control of our government would take good ol' ben and have his womanizing butt in jail...that would be one of the reasons the government wants to be able to centralize personal data and monitor personal activity...so they would be able to track subversives and womanizers like b. f.

I wonder if old ben, looking down with his bretheren to the new nation they founded and brought forth, if America evolved according to the great vision of liberty and freedom that so many people died for...I wonder

 

[lancer]

And as a further note, i don't think the terrible deaths of 2,752 people, justifies any change in the governments personal sercurity crackdown on regular americans (not just citizens). Furthermore, the reason they are pushing so hard for all these changes at home is because they are so ****ing inadequate at combating terrorists overseas.

When it comes down to it 9/11 the American Government has to take a large portion of the blame for 9/11 however you look at it, foreign policy, lack of respect for other nations, saying one think then doing another, promising help on one hand then turning tail and running on the other (91 sunni's irag).

I think if they really wanted to stop terrorisim, you wouldn't envade whole countrys killing 100k people plus, just because some crazy jihad ****s killed 2,752 people at home, only insane people at this way.

Instead of invading why not use those (how much is it now $500 billions dollars?), billions of dollars in aid. Instead of punishing these countries with santions, ply them with food and education, bring their societies up with the western lvl, you'll find then they'll do their own house keeping once they learn what lvl of living they are at.

 

[lancer]

This one goes a little deeper, requiring it to obtain government services. Really, it's just designed to make it easier to deny illegal immigrants/terrorists common services afforded to nationals. If you don't show this card or a visa or some document that proves you have a legal right to be here, well, you don't. Try going to Korea without a passport or ID sometime...hope you like kimchi in jail : )

I'm just joking though; I see your point. Drivers licenses contain essentially the same information.

Well just to give you some idea, i just go my so called green card a few months ago and prior to that i had a drivers license and a work visa, and at no time would a national ID card have helped the police any if they tried to pull me over.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I cannot speculate on Ben Franklin's feelings. He is dead.

care to speculate anyway?

what do you think, knoing what you know about good old ben...do you think he would be for carving an exception, and that he would be for un equal rights for people that have a differant sexual disposition then he (possibly) had.'

just speculate then,,,how do you think he would say these "types" should be treated under the law?

unequal?

or equal?

I know, I know, he's dead...but venture a guess

 

[Petros]

Quoting his writings earlier in the thread is dead-on, solid argumentation. Speculating his feelings is impossible. He can no longer communicate them to us. Were he alive today, his only feeling would be sheer panic from being trapped in a coffin under tons of dirt.

 

[Perris Calderon]

he's already comunicated his feelings as regarding "equal protection under the law", so if you believe he is not a hypocite, and you believe he might have been a champion for all mankind, there is no reason to speculate

 

[Petros]

The phrase you are looking for is "equal protection of the laws," from the Fourteenth Amendment, which was added to the constitution a good seventy-eight years after he expired. He did, however, endorse that "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." Maybe that's what you mean.

Edit: BONUS! Google "equal protection under the law" and you'll find that it is contained in exactly zero historical documents, and is rather an anthem of many liberals and homosexuals who don't realize that they are misquoting the 14th. I'm not sure what the ultimate goal is behind the rewording; maybe it's just trendy to paraphrase important writings these days.
_______________________

Back to the ID card...it effectively denies government services like education, welfare, police, and public attorneys, from illegal aliens, which will increase money available to legal residents so they can have better lives. Though it sounds harsh, Americans are not responsible for the shortfalls of the Mexican government.