America under siege?[just perris in a rant]

[Tuffgong4]

from what I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty good spots to be in.

You have Iran in the middle with Syria to the west and saudia arabia to the south. You can keep a pretty good eye on things from that stand point.

and I'll try and explain the point of losing more lives in Afghanistan than Iraq. Yes doubling the lives of lost soldiers in Afghanistan would not equal the total in Iraq...BUT had we been there the whole time the fight would have been so hard and so bitter that the total amount of lost soldiers would double or triple fighting in Afghanistan. This is not just number right now but what WOULD have been if we just stayed in Afghani territory and fought from there.

So many of these decisions can be Political and so many can be Tactical(military) that looking at them with just one or the other point of view is neither good nor reasonable.

The main point is this whole situation sucks. Do we want to have troops over there...NO! But we can't just protect the homeland with disrupting the planning of terrorists abroad. If we just protected home we would have no idea what we were waiting for.

The war on terror will probably go on for the next 15 years probably more so we will have time to see what transpires. But also if the next pres takes care of business I think we have a decent start already. Whether it makes everyone happy? Who cares? I don't. The majority of the people in the US elected him for a second term and that's what we have. (I didn't vote Bush or Kerry so don't get one my case). I just know we have what we have and we have to live with it.

Also don't get your hopes up for a "better" president anytime soon. This country will still be sending buffoon after buffoon to the elections for many years to come no matter the party. We will either have an idiot Dem or an idiot Rep in office in 3 years. So let's just hope for the best.

 

[Perris Calderon]

from what I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty good spots to be in.

had we been there the whole time the fight would have been so hard and so bitter that the total amount of lost soldiers would double or triple fighting in Afghanistan. .

the fight was gong incredibly well in afghanistan...sorry, it was counter productive to invent a new war on a new front at the expense of afghanistan

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Libya ia nothing anymore used to be a center but thats in the past .... as for anything else I don't see where the reason their is troops lost in Iraq is because of 2 fronts thats just plain stupid logic the reason troops are lost is because they are at war , dont try and make it that the troops in Iraq are not able to handle themselves the way they are being attacked is almost impossible to defend against 100% , troops will be lost sad fact of war..as for the numbers dont seem to be as many troops these days it seems its mostly iraq's getting killed in mass numbers .

 

[Kr0m]

krom, thank you for your anti-US rhetoric. You just sit back with your countrymen (as usual) and the US will police the world (as usual). As far as Africa goes, I think you are insulting the US men in uniform currently there. Look it up. If it's peacekeeping missions you are referring to, well then, what do we need the UN for(see the second sentence again, please)?

Oh please. Anti-US rhetoric? Let me make this clear to you, it's more like Anti-US-Government's-Crap-Policies, the lies & deceit that goes along with them. That's a BIG difference.
While I'm personally sitting back, "my countrymen" are also in Afghanistan and other war torn nations helping to rebuild, thanks for trying though.
It was no insult to any military personnel on the ground anywhere, if you want to make it into an insult, then aim it at your government, my government and everyone else's governments that are slow to react to areas in conflict.
"Policing The World" and having a part in the crime in the first place seems kind of wierd doesn't it?

 

[Sazar]

perris, sazar, what I said is 100% accurate from a tactical standpoint.

How the heck can you say it is 100% accurate when Generals and tacticians who have FOUGHT wars and commanded have argued against it and it is one of the reasons WHY we had problems at the begginging to secure the country, hence spawning the continuing angst v/s the invasion and occupation and terrorism's presence has increased?

Argue about 2 fronts all you want, but the reasoning is sound. Again, re-read it. You're missing the point here. Afghanistan was NOT a place to fight. I have 8 years in combat arms, 6 in the Infantry and 2 in Armor and countless hours of tactical training.

The argument is we should never have been there in the first place. Thereby your reasoning continues to be flawed. The 2 fronts argument since we did invade is relevant because the reasoning is far from sound.

Afghanistan continues to have problems and it is the place where the attack on our soil was organised originally.

No, it is not a perfect scenario, nothing is. Perfect would be no combat at all. But it can be advantageous to our objectives. I'm sorry you all cannot see this for what it can be.

What objectives?

I can dress up a pile of dung with silk scarves, it does not change what it really is. And that pile of dung cannot become something else.

Tactically, philosophically we were wrong and there is precedent from our previous regime change incursions which proves this.

As I keep pointing out, remember Iran?

 

[Sazar]

from what I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty good spots to be in.

How? The cost of the invasions are running into the hundreds of billions of dollars and the casualties keep rising. Have we achieved our objective (not the revised ones)? What was that objective originally?

Where is Osama?

You have Iran in the middle with Syria to the west and saudia arabia to the south. You can keep a pretty good eye on things from that stand point.

WE created the situation in Iran in the first place. And you can blame the Brits and the French for their part in the situation in the other ME nations.

Everyone has baggage.

and I'll try and explain the point of losing more lives in Afghanistan than Iraq. Yes doubling the lives of lost soldiers in Afghanistan would not equal the total in Iraq...BUT had we been there the whole time the fight would have been so hard and so bitter that the total amount of lost soldiers would double or triple fighting in Afghanistan. This is not just number right now but what WOULD have been if we just stayed in Afghani territory and fought from there.

Hypothetical, this is not what happened and Iraq continues to be an unsolved issue.

No one I have spoken to at CentCom when I was in Tampa suggested anything close to what you are suggesting.

So many of these decisions can be Political and so many can be Tactical(military) that looking at them with just one or the other point of view is neither good nor reasonable.

Looking at it from a factual standpoint provides more detail than hypothetical suppositions of possible outcomes. You make your points well but from what we have seen and know, including what you know in hindsight and what people like me have been claiming from before we even invaded, it was always going to be such.

This is what happens when you place people (ie Rumsfeld) in charge who are not familiar with the circumstances or able to rectify their mistakes.

The main point is this whole situation sucks. Do we want to have troops over there...NO! But we can't just protect the homeland with disrupting the planning of terrorists abroad. If we just protected home we would have no idea what we were waiting for.

Have you seen any of the reports about our domestic security situation? Inadequacies abound all over the place. We are not much more secure than the day 9/11 occured and our ports are the most at risk.

Were we actually protecting home, I would have no qualms but even with an unpopular foreign policy, we continue to have lax security at home barely a few years removed from one of the worst terrorist attacks ever.

The war on terror will probably go on for the next 15 years probably more so we will have time to see what transpires.

Where? In Afghanistan? But we have already stopped for the most part out war on terror and have been reduced to containing the situation in Iraq which is NOT a part of the war on terror.

But also if the next pres takes care of business I think we have a decent start already. Whether it makes everyone happy? Who cares? I don't. The majority of the people in the US elected him for a second term and that's what we have. (I didn't vote Bush or Kerry so don't get one my case). I just know we have what we have and we have to live with it.

People did not vote for Bush on policies or anything of that nature. People voted for Bush purely because stategists portrayed Kerry to be a worse candidate.

Nothing to do with policies. Everything to do with Rove. I detest the man but he is a good political strategist.

Also don't get your hopes up for a "better" president anytime soon. This country will still be sending buffoon after buffoon to the elections for many years to come no matter the party. We will either have an idiot Dem or an idiot Rep in office in 3 years. So let's just hope for the best.

The dumbasses in this country who vote w/o knowing anything are the ones who put dumbasses into office. Been going on a lot lately for Dems, Reps and Ind's.

If the majority of a nations or states population is basically dumbasses, it's only right if there are dumbasses in office voted in by them.



An accurate reflection of the people's I think.

People power, or, more accuratately, dumbass power.

 

[Perris Calderon]

that post is excellent imho...a few annotations;

The cost of the invasions are running into the hundreds of billions of dollars and the casualties keep rising.

Have we achieved our objective (not the revised ones)? What was that objective originally? where is Osama?

no, we haven't, nor are the revised objectives achieved...for instance right now and into the foreseeable future, Iraq is NOT a democracy, it's a theocracy...a country run by theologians and religious zealots who will further their personal view of culture and society.

Looking at it from a factual standpoint provides more detail than hypothetical suppositions of possible outcomes.... from what we have seen and know, including what you know in hindsight

this is what supporters of our current policy have to realize;

hindsight is our measure of presidents, policy and the respective affectiveness... foresight is the test

and what people like me have been claiming from before we even invaded, it was always going to be such...This is what happens when you place people (ie Rhumsfeld) in charge who are not familiar with the circumstances or able to rectify their mistakes.

not only people like you sazar, but the more important measure...the president doesn't weigh advise from people like you and me.

he weighs advise from people in his administration

that boys and girls is the very rub!

because administration advisor's warned of what would happen with an invasion of Iraq also...clark, tennet, Powell.

the only person that was on the presidents side with Iraq policy was rhumsfeld.

this invented war was clearly a personal choice from this president based on nothing but the presidents personal obsession

We are not much more secure than the day 9/11 occurred and our ports are the most at risk.

I'm not sure we're more at risk, however, there is no doubt that policy is remiss in important and obvious areas that need to be defended in America...for instance, the very idea of giving wealthy people $5000 individually of my money...money that was earmarked to reinforce the ports of America... is to my mind a criminal act.

...we have already stopped for the most part out war on terror and have been reduced to containing the situation in Iraq which is NOT a part of the war on terror.

it surely seems the entire point of Iraq was to divert the resources earmarked to fight terrorism.

 

[Lee]

I was always under the impression that a Country has an amry to protect it's own land, not to go invading lands of other nations.

This what the Nazi's did.

 

[Son Goku]

I was always under the impression that a Country has an amry to protect it's own land, not to go invading lands of other nations.

This what the Nazi's did.

Unfortunately, looking back at history, this isn't always what happened. That might be a reson that people see a reason for a military, but not necessarily a reason that Napolean might have agreed with for instance...

not only people like you sazar, but the more important measure...the president doesn't weigh advise from people like you and me.

he weighs advise from people in his administration

that boys and girls is the very rub!

Bush didn't even care what Powell and others mentioned (as you have also indicated); he wouldn't care what any of us think. Now if we changed our name to Karl Rove, he might care There are a few people who do have his ear, and people like Rove I would personally describe as both an amoralist and arguably nepharious...

Rove might have had a part in this too. Lets just say that in "Bush's Brain" (though I don't have the book in front of me to look up the page) it mentioned how in July or so of 2002, yes, before talk of war in Iraq became public, there was a key meeting between various Republicans to discuss how they could increase their power, and the upcomming November 2002 Congressional elections. Rove was, from what I gather also a part of this. Anyhow, a disk that someone ended up (presumably by accident) dropping in the park which was latter found had a power point presentation on it. One one of the slides it said essentially

To win November Congressional election and increase our power

- Talk about war in Iraq and war on terror
...- Above all, don't let the media (distract their attention away from) the ecconomy

 

[Son Goku]

The dumbasses in this country who vote w/o knowing anything are the ones who put dumbasses into office. Been going on a lot lately for Dems, Reps and Ind's.

If the majority of a nations or states population is basically dumbasses, it's only right if there are dumbasses in office voted in by them.

Saz, I can't entirely go along with you on this one. In the whole, I would have to say that people are becomming a bit wiser in some ways (comparing it to decades ago) in being able to figure out when they are being decieved. There was a time in which it would have almost been unthinkable for people to even question what the leadership in this country is doing, a time some politicians would probably like a return to.

But on the other hand, some are also becomming more cunning in manipulating the masses, their thoughts, views, etc... Back in 1996, I had a class on the "politics of public opinion" which was essentially this. It went over just how and when public opinion could be changed, what views are likely to be changed, how it can be achieved, etc... There are many things to consider from the public education system, and just how good of a job they do educating people in this country, to how well or poorly the media covers stories by which people are informed, etc...

But there's another angle to all of this. Many people (advertisers for instance, and possibly public relations people) have been studying psychology, giving psych tests "to target our commercials so they more effectively 'serve' our customers", etc... That little tid bit, I was introduced to when I was taking an intro psych course in 1992, when I saw a news documentary on this (and that quote I gave was directly said by one of the advertisers interviewed as defence for their actions on that documentary), and elsewhere... Needless to say, these people don't have humanitarian or altruistic reasons for profiling people's psyches, or bringing the lattest psychology has to offer, to the table in their own respective fields. Mind manipulation, I don't think would be too harsh a word.

I was googling to see if I could find something on this phenominon for ya, but found this instead. It's perhaps more germain to the discussion at hand anyhow...

http://www.beverlye.com/clonereview.html

While it is commonly known that psychological testing of students in public schools has increased considerably in the past thirty years, the current depth of inquiry into children's thinking and the lack of safeguards on students' personal privacy are probably news to many. In Cloning of the American Mind: Eradicating Morality Through Education, B.K. Eakman describes an education establishment that collects vast amounts of information on school children nationally and uses it to promote a radical restructuring of the public education system, to be accomplished through a paradigm shift away from the traditional academic approach to an outcome-based model. As the new paradigm becomes installed nationally, students enter higher education with values increasingly hostile (not merely indifferent) to traditional content-based learning and personal accountability, and the results of this early indoctrination may not be reversible in one year, or even four.

Pennsylvania's Educational Quality Assessment (EQA) test, as one example among many, shows that students are often required to answer intimate questions about themselves and their family. Tests and their results are shrouded in secretiveness. The goals of most psychological tests are hidden from parents, and even from teachers and principals. When parents complain about test procedures and ask to see results, testing organizations typically refuse to respond, or deliberately misrepresent their activities. Meanwhile, testing companies surreptitiously identify individual students by requiring teachers to keep sheets linking student names with identifying numbers that appear on test booklets. A bureaucrat at the National Center for Educational Statistics (NCES) replied to parents complaining about invasion of privacy by distinguishing between "individually identified" and "individually identifiable" data (69)...

Student psychological tests are now in the domain of psychographics, a relatively new field combining elements of demo graphics and marketing research, defined as "the study of social class based upon the demographics... income, race, color, religion, and personality traits." (Chapter 2 is titled. "Psychographics and the Curriculum Connection.") Results of each student's psychological test; are merged with demographic data and sometimes information on other family members to create a personal file that goes into computer data banks. The data are then sold to businesses and accessed by a number of institutes, universities, and government agencies, of which Eakman lists twenty-nine. Government education agencies in particular use psychographic research to construct curricula intended to change students' values and attitudes. "Psycho-behavioral educators and curriculum development specialists are doing precisely what New Age advertisers are doing: inserting their messages unobtrusively into programs--learning programs. Subtle political messages increasingly are becoming part of the content" (54). This "psychologized education," which would be called "brain washing" if practiced on individuals, because it is practiced on groups of students, goes under the rubric "scientific coercion" (196). By allowing schools to get inside students' belief systems through psychological tests and attempt to change those belief systems through canned curricula, says Eakman, "we have incurred a whole new threat to our children's, and our nation's, freedoms" (204). Another tactic likely to upset parents of school-age children and civil libertarians alike (over- lapping categories) is the use of results of psychological tests coupled with greatly expanded categories of mental illness to label certain normal behavior as "sick" or "at risk," thus permitting the state to intervene in the family and attaching a "psychologically disturbed" label to the child for life (95-100)...

I'd have to look at some of these lattest developments in more detail, but I'm not unaware of psychological profiling, and targeting in advertizing, and politics for that matter as well...

Lets be honest saz, in the midst of all this, especially as the indoctrination continues, what would you say a person's prospects are to extricate themself of all this, to think more clearly about the given issues? Especially when the media doesn't always do the best job protraying the issues, the CIA can have plants in the media (recent story), or CNN for instance could plant a story for the Pentagon (all things I would have to look up seperately to show, if you hadn't read them before)?

It would be no small task for people en masse to extricate themselves of such indoctrination, especially when those responsible can continue to re-test them, and alter their "message" to further it...

 

[Perris Calderon]

mind manipulation
I was googling to see if I could find something on this phenomenon for ya, but found this instead. It's perhaps more germain to the discussion at hand anyhow...

http://www.beverlye.com/clonereview.html

brainwashing...I think that's a fair expression

an example for instance as follows;

the public gets access to a document that was never intended for their consumption, and they find out the following;

1) the document of impending doom was hand delivered to the president

2)the document was TITTLED "Osama bin laden determined to attack America"

3) the document is as PRECISE and as accurate a warning of this nature can ever be hoped...the document and breifing actually gives data in such unheard of detail that it's hard to comprehend...it will go so far as to tell who would mount the attack, it will tell where the attack would occur, it will tell when the attack would happen, how the plan would execute, it would even tell what the targets would be, both geographically and specific target objects

4) the warning would not only come hand delivered and presented in document form, it would also be peronsally explained to the president in entirety...the explanation will be made clear... in no uncertain terms...the impending threat is so very close at hand and that "everybody is running around with their hair on fire"

5) now get this, cuz this is the scary part;...the president actually takes all of this information...information presented with foremost urgency...he decides the very best course of action faced with this threat, (according to his agenda planned for America) will be to ignore the intel which was delivered and explained personally !!!...he LITERALLY stands down!...instead to enjoy a vacation on his ranch... rather then take the action you would THINK a briefing of this magnitude MIGHT indicate (IF someone with the smallest desire to defend this great nation were the person being breifed)

6) As example for protocol which might AT LEAST be followed, an identical warning has already become part of historical precedence...no need to pressure the inteligence of this military giant...there is already prepared a template of action...believe it or not the template for defending America is ignored!!!

instead, the much better the preferred strategy will be to have a nice stay at the ranch.

When we see that all of this can happen... and yet the man that did nothing, he is never the less APPLAUDED among his party and among those party loyalists and called a HERO of all things!

there is no question in my mind that successful brainwashing has taken place among the masses in America.

for instance another hard to explain series of events;

his first adviser stands before the public and has the nerve to call the warning just spoken about "a historical document" !

yet the very authors of the document in sworn testimony inform us that the president was full informed of the urgency of this Intel

and when Rice can actually get in front of America ..(though the document CLEARLY states that "commercial airliners would be used as weapons"), she will have the NERVE to not only call this a "historical document", but she will go on to actually say "nobody could know that a commercial jet could be used as a missile"...I'm thinking my pet border Colly probably knows a jet is a missile by it's very nature, and a missile is the ONLY an airliner can be used as a weapon...(a border Colly is a smart dog to be sure, but I think Rice is supposed to be a little smarter then Skippy dog)

that all of this can happen with impudence, there can be no doubt in my mind that some kind of brainwashing is taking place in America

in the midst of all this, especially as the indoctrination continues, what would you say a person's prospects are to extricate them self of all this, to think more clearly about the given issues?

I'm beginning to think it's impossible for most...I see people who's intelligence I absolutely respect become somehow convinced of such ridiculous mind manipulation like you've sen on this thread...things like "Clinton let bin laden get away", (though in fact Clinton did more then any other president to end the bin laden threat), I am dumbfounded people can fall for such shallow brainwashing, but yet they do.

the CIA can have plants in the media (recent story), or CNN for instance could plant a story for the Pentagon (all things I would have to look up separately to show, if you hadn't read them before)?

it goes on and on...for instance, not only does the president have actors reading these mind manipulating scripts...they are planted as respectable "journalists"...in addition, he won't allow questions from people that challenge his decisions or policy unless he is apprised and prepared before the question arrives publicly.

I've been calling the brainwashing of this sort "wealthy owned big business media spin machine"... but "brainwashing" is a more elegant term

another example of this type of brainwashing;

savings the middle class have set aside for their retirement has been raided and raped...these long saved funds are given to the elite class by the current administration;

the middle class find this out yet they raise no alarm!...they are EASILY convinced through this brainwashing mechanism that the elite who put this man in office have somehow earned the right to steal their retirement savings...nobody even thinks about trying to get the money that was stolen back!

the only explanation I can think of is that the brainwashing of America has worked very VERY well

now what about the story that opened this very thread?

there are people on this thread who's intelligence I respect as genius defined that are actually convinced policemen are "doing their job" when they fabricate a false arrest! ! !...that police are "doing their job" when they perjure their sworn testimony!

how have Americans been convinced like this very example?

what explanation could there be but brainwashing?

I have no idea if these police actually did these things...it looks like we'll never find out either

whether or not you are on the side of the right wing or the left, there still must be alarm raised when things like this might happen in America

I want to find out if these police are immune from prosecution...people with more liberal points of view like myeslf and people with concervative points of view like ThePatriot sure want to find out what will happen to these "police"

the brainwashed however do not want to lift or go near that stone

we live in troublesome times indeed...Americans have changed in no small way

 

[Son Goku]

brainwashing...I think that's a fair expression

an example for instance as follows;

the public gets access to a document that was never intended for their consumption, and they find out the following;

1) the document of impending doom was hand delivered to the president

2)the document was TITTLED "Osama bin laden determined to attack America"

3) the document is as PRECISE and accurate as a warning of this nature can ever be expected...it actually gives data with such unheard of details it's hard to comprehend...who would attack, where the attack would occur, when the attack would happen, how the plan would execute, and what the targets would be, both geographically and specific target objects

4) the document was not only hand delivered, but it's explained in it's entirety, the explanation is made clear in no uncertain terms that the threat is so close at hand and that "everybody's hair was on fire as never before"

5) the president actually takes the information and ignores it, literally stands down, instead to enjoy a vacation on his ranch rather then take action necessary for the defense of this great nation.

6) as example that might AT LEAST be followed, an identical warning has allready become part of precedance, and has prepared a template of action...this template is ignored

when all of this happens and the man that did nothing with the information is sited as a HERO of all things!

there is no question in my mind that successful brainwashing has taken place among the masses.

for instance, his first adviser stands before the public and has the nerve to call the warning "a historical document"

yet the very authors of the document in sworn testimony inform us that the president was full informed of the urgency of this Intel

and when Rice can actually get in front of America ..though the document CLEARLY states that "commercial airliners would be used as weapons", she will have the NERVE to not only call this a "historical document", but she then will actually say "nobody could know that a commercial jet could be used as a missile", (as if my pet border Colly doesn't know that a jet is a missile...a border collly is a smart dog to be sure, but I think Rice is supposed to be a little smarter then my skippy)

and when all of this happens with impudence, there can be no doubt in my mind that there is some kind of brainwashing taking place in America

I had started reading a book in the bookstore sometime back, though I'd have to look again for the title. Among some of the things it mentioned (and it looked at the FBI's intelligence lapses that preceeded 9/11):

- There were some terrorists, in fact one of the people implicated for the 1993 WTC terrorist attack who was under survallence. Agents were ordered to "let it go" a couple weeks before having apprehended one of the culprits.

- One of the fire martials (who was formerly in the military, but also one of the people on scene in 1993, who personally was there on call at the WTC at that time) was absolutely convinced after the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center that they'd be back. He tried unsuccessfully to get the authorities attention, and was sumarilly ignored. He studied up all he could on Middle East terror, and all his pleas that the FBI and the like look into this, got nothing but a deaf ear.

- There was an FBI agent who was persuing links to terrorist activity prior to this. Again, even as an agent she was ignored and told to "let it drop". She accounted how she was on (I think it was the George Washington bridge) at the time the attacks occured. Her heart nearly stopped if you will, as she immediately knew what it was. Being summarily ignored by her supervisors for so long, and now this, she wanted out of there and had already requested a transfer to another field office...

If I could find the title of that book again, was a rather informative read...

I'm beginning to think it's impossible for most...I see people who's intelligence I absolutely respect become somehow convinced of such ridiculous mind manipulation like "Clinton let bin laden get away", (though in fact Clinton did more then any other president to end the bin laden threat), I am dumbfounded

Two things I related to someone else sometime back...I would mention here:

- First, this quote from a former journalist, and their responce to a toast for the "independent media" in this country. Important to remember in context to this, the person giving this was giving this comment as a journalist at the time they gave it, and in respect to their own experience in the industry:

Journalist John Swinton-one of the most respected of the breed at the time-described the situation succinctly when he gave a toast at the New York Press Club in 1953. Swinton said,

"There is no such thin at this date of the world's history, in America, as an
independent press. You know it, I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

"The business of journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert,
to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?

We are the tools of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." (Jim Keith: "Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness": 41-42)

- One other thing at the end of that book, after he got done detailing the CIA's MKultra and Artichoke programs, among other things, I would include, would be his conclusion at the end of the whole sorted tail.

Here stands the New Man, his mind and body stolen from him, soul reduced to impulses of the animal he thinks he is. His conception of reality is a dance of electronic images fired into his forebrain, a gossamer construction of his masters, designed so that he will not under any circumstances perceive the actual. His happiness is delivered to him through a tube or an electronic connection. His God lurks behind an electronic curtain; when the curtain is pulled away we find the CIA sorcerer, the media manipulator, the cyberneticist, the weaver of Dreamscape.

As can be seen in the recitation of horrors in these pages, with the advent of
advanced technology for mind control and people control we stand at the edge of an abyss. We are at that moment in history where the controllers can do away with what little freedom the human race still possesses, and chain every aspect of the life of mankind to their own parasitic purposes. We are a the point where it is feasible that the destiny of mankind can be owned, and can be molded and shaped with the ease of shaping clay.

A revolution is taking place in the United States instituted by the controllers,
whose agents have learned their materialist, immoral philosophies at the knee of monsters like Cameron and Delgado. They are putting in place mind control
technologies, advanced surveillance, computerization, indoctrination, prisons and other people-control technologies, that will render freedom meaningless and obsolete, syllables fallen from the lips of a mind-controlled moron. They are launching new assaults on people's lives every minute.

Using these new and old technologies, dissent and original thought are being
ripped from us. Traditions of individual sovereignty and freedom are being
expunged from our minds and from the history books. And, due to the multitude of anesthetics we have been shot up with, we don't feel a thing.

I am no technology-hating Luddite of old. I use a computer, I surf the Internet. But am against the use of technology in the continuing commission of crimes against humanity. As the information in this book must have shown, throughout history new technologies has been used in the service of authoritarian control without regard for the presumed-at least in America-rights of individuals. Unless our children are going to be the subjects of a world that makes 1984 look benign, then it is time for us to resist the mutilations that the mind masters are foisting upon us.


People should be reminded that the individual sovereignty of our minds and bodies is our most valuable possession. We must educate the populace about the programs of control that have gone on for at least the latter half of this century. We must expose mind control programs that are currently going on in the military, in religious cults, and in psychiatric experiments, in the media, and see to it that these operations are brought to an end. Mind control fascism should be turned worldwide into a hot button topic so that at the mere mention of new incursions on our freedom, the public uproar will be overwhelming.

We must force government to open all files on mind control and related
experimentation. Although much of this information has been destroyed, there is certainly a great deal of such documentation that still exists. We must take back the ownership of our world and ourselves.

Now that you have read this book, it is time to act. As always, I advise against illegality and violence. We must expose the nature of totalitarian control, its technologies, its agents. We must safeguard against further incursions against our freedom, our humanity. We must end the mass control of mankind in our lifetime. ("Mass Control": 244-245)

I have debated many such matters in the past till I was blue in the face and was left with all, but the impression that such efforts are futile. I used to study politics, law, etc... Yes, there was time I was considering going into government, though it seems like a lifetime ago by now. I was disgusted, disenchanted, and all I could see again and again, was a perfect example of what I would never want to be. What in fact I would never want to allow myself to become, or to allow these people, and this game of politics we find these days, to turn me into...

Above all, I'm not always sure what to say, especially when the disinformation continues... I ran into this with my mother, sorry to say when we were discussing Martin Luther King sometime back. She's very much an opponent of King, and I know now that much of what she was saying comes straight from the pages, almost verbatum of the FBI's Cointelpro against King. She feels she lived through that era and knows what was in the media, as "I was there".

But I know what she had claimed, and I have seen some of the records that came to light in Congress in the 1970s concerning Cointelpro, as it was directed against King, and the sort of disinformation or counter-intelligence they hoisted upon the American people in a concerted effort of character assasination. I felt it was best to just let the issue drop. She is also, above all else, my own mother, regardless of what Cointelpro had gotten her to believe

Above all, I can see some of what is comming, and to some degree as I read some of what is happening in this country and the world, I can feel it in my bones..., and to be honest it's a future I would rather not see come to pass in some respects. I wonder how some might have felt as they were trying to warn people the Titanic was sinking, if people aboard just laughed at them and said "This ship is unsinkable. Must be your imagination..."

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Ahh The X files live and well on the internet woooohoooo

Like anything will change there is always the few that think they know different and then the masses of zombies that are all ready under their control nothing to do about that unless you unbrainwash the zombies and that cant happen you dont have and never will have the money means or power to do so ..

 

[Son Goku]

Fact of the matter is the government has decieved people time and again, as I had said. You might want to get a copy of the "Cointelpro Papers" (Cointelpro for the FBI's counterintelligence programs) to see exactly what can, and has happened.

All the documents with reference to this are on the record and had come out when Congress was exercising their over-site powers over the Executive in the 1970s... The Committees, Church and Pike, were in fact the predecessors to the modern day Congressional Intelligence Committees, and it was in part due to revelations such as these that Congress decided then that permanent Intelligence oversite was needed.

Hell, public relations (and the whole PR industry) could be described in this manner. And I do know what we were being taught how to do when I was taking "politics of public opinion" back in 1996, as well as the case of mental indigestion I was walking away from class with, every night we had it. As well as the indication of the teacher I had in mass media studies, who herself claimed to have formerly worked in a news room where she said that it was common practice for them to take press releases, type them ver batum, with no changes whatsoever, and put their own name, as journalists to these press releases, prior to print.

You hope there is some fact checking, but from what she said, news rooms didn't have the time or inclination to really delve into or check that the PR statement they received and published as news, was as advertized. She also indicated that where she has worked for sure, as well as in the news industry, this was more common then many of us would suspect.

One mention in "public opinion" was of a "study" conducted by the local power company, (who as a utility company holds a legal monopoly). Some would describe this as corporate socialism, but oh well. In any case, when a measure was up for vote to call for intervention at the state level (perhaps mandate competition, or rescind their monopoly status), this is what occured. In terms of the line of questioning on the "survey" it's important to keep in mind the time of the survey. We're talking around 1972 or 1973.

The questions included:

"Do you support Communist proposals like the Power Authority of Maine, or are you a capitalist who supports your local electric company?"

"Do you trust politicians such as Richard Nixon, or do you trust your local power company?"

When the study was published, and there were a ton more questions worded like that, after Watergate broke, and in the era of strong anti-Communist sentiments, they leaving the manner of questioning out, created a pitch with TV ads and the like.

They left essentially the impression, but in subtle manner of "Most people think this...you should too". Afterwards, the vote lost and went to the power company, after this ellaborate survey followed by ads to further their cause, and manipulate public opinion in their favor.

 

[mlakrid]

1 ***** WE created the situation in Iran in the first place. And you can blame the Brits and the French for their part in the situation in the other ME nations.

2 ***** No one I have spoken to at CentCom when I was in Tampa suggested anything close to what you are suggesting.

3 ***** This is what happens when you place people (ie Rumsfeld) in charge who are not familiar with the circumstances or able to rectify their mistakes.

4 ***** Have you seen any of the reports about our domestic security situation? Inadequacies abound all over the place. We are not much more secure than the day 9/11 occured and our ports are the most at risk.

5 ***** Were we actually protecting home, I would have no qualms but even with an unpopular foreign policy, we continue to have lax security at home barely a few years removed from one of the worst terrorist attacks ever.

First, let me say I have agreed with you on many MANY occasions this however isnt one of them, I just got back from Iraq and will post the pics tonight after I get home, back to what I thought were not so correct however:

1) I dont blame the Brits but I sure blame the french (partly) for aiding terror they sell guns weapons and ammunitions to whoever has the cash... and NO Im not naive to think WE (US Govt) hasnt done this in the past obviously we have when it furthered our goals Iran-contra perfect example... please no flames...

2) who did you speak to? I work in J2 Systems, and I had to goto Iraq for futhering our communications in Iraq where there are plenty of camps, see the news this weekend? Yes: Splitting forces was one of the dumbest things we have done to date, and afghanistan needed to be done, BUT.... Iraq would have eventually, after we showed the world they would never allow unfettered weapons inspecter access...

3) Rumsfeld has just as much access to the information as those people on the security counsel, hes at the earlybird meetings every morning, where did you get this idea from?

4) Yes I have and NO we are not totally secure, no one EVER is, but the part about our ports not being more secure is not entirely true: Our ports are Much more secure than pre- 9/11 when I was still in DC I worked for ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) which has been renamed National Maritime Intelligence Center (NMIC for short) and yes they were wide open, only random checks were done befor, and only on vessels not home ported in the US. Going too much into how they screen vessels for which ones to check would not be a good idea in the public eye... I would like to note over 45000 vessels visit US ports every day, there is simply No way we could check them all..

5) Security here has improved dramtically, there still are ways for people to enter the US without being seen or heard the idea is to stop those people hoping to pray on weaknesses in our security, its the same thing like you do when you go to the gym you lock the locker. Why? Not to keep the real crooke out most of them have tools to drill and remove the hinges off the lock, you only put the loick in place to keep those people who are only out to take advantage of the situation HONEST...

Note: as honest as terrorists can be anyway...

Other than that... GREAT post...

Ill get my Baghdad pics up tonight....

CHEERS!

 

[Sazar]

First, let me say I have agreed with you on many MANY occasions this however isnt one of them, I just got back from Iraq and will post the pics tonight after I get home, back to what I thought were not so correct however:

1) I dont blame the Brits but I sure blame the french (partly) for aiding terror they sell guns weapons and ammunitions to whoever has the cash... and NO Im not naive to think WE (US Govt) hasnt done this in the past obviously we have when it furthered our goals Iran-contra perfect example... please no flames...

I blame the brits and the french because of the history of the region. I think it is disingenious to claim the french are the only ones who sell guns and weapons to unsavory characters. The brits have been more than capable of the same as have ourselves, as you point out.

2) who did you speak to? I work in J2 Systems, and I had to goto Iraq for futhering our communications in Iraq where there are plenty of camps, see the news this weekend? Yes: Splitting forces was one of the dumbest things we have done to date, and afghanistan needed to be done, BUT.... Iraq would have eventually, after we showed the world they would never allow unfettered weapons inspecter access...

One of the top brit guys there, I can't say names for obvious reasons. Also, my house-mate in Tampa, his dad was an interogator for the brits in iraq.

3) Rumsfeld has just as much access to the information as those people on the security counsel, hes at the earlybird meetings every morning, where did you get this idea from?

I get the idea from Rummy's reaction and action to various incidents and circumstances that arose in iraq and afghanistan. Since he is the top dog wrt the matters, he is the one where the buck stops at before Bush.

4) Yes I have and NO we are not totally secure, no one EVER is, but the part about our ports not being more secure is not entirely true: Our ports are Much more secure than pre- 9/11 when I was still in DC I worked for ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) which has been renamed National Maritime Intelligence Center (NMIC for short) and yes they were wide open, only random checks were done befor, and only on vessels not home ported in the US. Going too much into how they screen vessels for which ones to check would not be a good idea in the public eye... I would like to note over 45000 vessels visit US ports every day, there is simply No way we could check them all..

I don't think we need a perfect system, nor a completey fail-safe one because it is impossible. The point I made is that there are deficiencies in various areas of coverage INSPITE of new departments and the funding provided to it. I have submitted close to 20% of my pay in taxes thus far, I am not that keen to see ineffectual work being conducted with my monies.

5) Security here has improved dramtically, there still are ways for people to enter the US without being seen or heard the idea is to stop those people hoping to pray on weaknesses in our security, its the same thing like you do when you go to the gym you lock the locker. Why? Not to keep the real crooke out most of them have tools to drill and remove the hinges off the lock, you only put the loick in place to keep those people who are only out to take advantage of the situation HONEST...

Note: as honest as terrorists can be anyway...

My problems stem actually from post 9/11. I flew out the country to meet my parents in december of the year and was appalled at the crappy security in the airports. I was even more appalled when I came back and went to Times Square for new year's eve. Security certainly pissed me off and looked great on television, but did absolutely nothing for ACTUAL security with people able to sneak all kinds of things in all around me.

If there were tangible differences, I would not be so harsh but this was in NEW YORK CITY, where 9/11 occured. Hence my pessimism

Other than that... GREAT post...

Ill get my Baghdad pics up tonight....

CHEERS!

Cheers Look forward to the pics. Stay safe.

 

[mlakrid]

I blame the brits and the french because of the history of the region. I think it is disingenious to claim the french are the only ones who sell guns and weapons to unsavory characters. The brits have been more than capable of the same as have ourselves, as you point out.

My problems stem actually from post 9/11. I flew out the country to meet my parents in december of the year and was appalled at the crappy security in the airports. I was even more appalled when I came back and went to Times Square for new year's eve. Security certainly pissed me off and looked great on television, but did absolutely nothing for ACTUAL security with people able to sneak all kinds of things in all around me.

If there were tangible differences, I would not be so harsh but this was in NEW YORK CITY, where 9/11 occured. Hence my pessimism

Cheers Look forward to the pics. Stay safe.

I didnt mean to make it sound like the French are the only ones who sell munitions of any kind, on the contrary the US is one of the top exporters of military grade weaponry in the world...

to explain my view more clearly... the French were selling satalite photos of our locations with satalites the US provided, which I might add were supposed to have been used for weather forcasting... instead were being used to photo graph US troops locations and their movements and were for sale to the highest bidder... we should have shot them down in my view the second we knew that they were doing this...

I never said the security is perfect, however like I stated before, it is MUCH better than it was pre-9/11. Also, in New York you are talking about a city with approx population of 8 Million local residents and at New Years that Figure sky rockets to almost 12 million.... hard to do security for that many people....

As for the pics, I hope you liked them!!

Hannibal!