IE 7.0 Beta 1 Discussion Thread

[vern]

I downloaded through a pretty popular tech site. I really didn't test it since I feel much more at home on Firefox with my extensions and bookmarks now.

 

[Electronic Punk]

I haven't installed vista yet, need a bigger spare hdd :s

 

[NetRyder]

I haven't installed vista yet, need a bigger spare hdd :s

You don't really need something big. I installed it on a 6GB partition this morning. Of course, installing larger third-party apps is going to be a problem. Might use Partition Magic in XP and give it some more space if I need it.

 

[Electronic Punk]

Cool, got a 10gig will throw it on there.

 

[NetRyder]

check my blog, as long as your msie version isnt less than IE 7 then it shouldnt load the bugfixing javascript code

Geffy, the real test will be Beta 2. That's when most of the CSS stuff gets checked in (see the post on the IEBlog I linked to above).

 

[kcnychief]

Looks like MS is admitting it will continue to have CSS handling flaws..

http://news.com.com/Next+Explorer+to+fail+Acid+test/2100-1032_3-5813897.html?tag=nefd.top

 

[ejn74]

I downloaded through a pretty popular tech site. I really didn't test it since I feel much more at home on Firefox with my extensions and bookmarks now.

Would you share the tech site?

 

[vern]

Is IE7 compatible with the Windows Update website? I go there and it just sits on that moving graph forever.

Would you share the tech site?

I got it here:

http://www.tcmagazine.info/modules.php?modid=4&action=show&id=385

But MS has asked them to remove it ... so they did.

 

[kcnychief]

Is IE7 compatible with the Windows Update website? I go there and it just sits on that moving graph forever.
quote]

You can visit the site, however it won't load after doing a scan. The only option with IE7 installed, is to have Automatic updates configured. The service itself still works, just not the GUI through the web. This is consistent with the IE7 beta for XP, as well as in Vista.

 

[kcnychief]

Looks like they are going to try and fix CSS to a point, but still won't pass the Acid2 testing...

http://www.betanews.com/article/IE7_CSS_and_Fixes_Detailed_No_Acid2/1123007296

 

[muzikool]

Here's a new article from Paul Thurrott that relates to yours, kcnycheif.

Some highlights...

In a recent blog posting , Microsoft Internet Explorer (IE) Lead Program Manager Chris Wilson revealed many of the technical improvements that Microsoft will add to IE 7.0 for its final release. Almost all the improvements are related to bugs in IE's implementation of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS), an HTML-like technology that Web developers use to create Web sites. Many of these bugs aren't fixed in the currently available IE 7.0 Beta 1 release, Wilson noted.

Wilson's post is disappointing because Microsoft doesn't plan to fully support the latest CSS standard in IE 7.0. Instead of using well-established Web standards, IE 7.0 will continue to foist proprietary technologies on Web developers, forcing them to choose between two competing ways of creating Web sites. "In IE 7.0, we will fix as many of the worst bugs that Web developers hit as we can, and we will add the critical most-requested features from the standards as well," Wilson said. "Our intent is to build a platform that fully complies with the appropriate Web standards, in particular CSS 2. I think we will make a lot of progress against that in IE 7.0 through our goal of removing the worst painful bugs that make our platform difficult to use for Web developers."

The most critical point in Wilson's post, in my mind, is Microsoft's admission that it will fail the crucial Acid2 browser-compliance test , which the Web Standards Project (WaSP) designed to help browser vendors ensure that their products properly support Web standards. Microsoft apparently disagrees. "Acid2 ... is pointedly not a compliance check," Wilson noted, contradicting the description on the Acid2 Web site. "As a wish list, [Acid2] is really important and useful to my team, but it isn't even intended, in my understanding, as our priority list for IE 7.0." Meanwhile, other browser teams have made significant efforts to comply with Acid2.

Full Article

What I found most interesting is where Chris is quoted saying:
Our intent is to build a platform that fully complies with the appropriate Web standards.
How does one determine what is and is not "appropriate" when it comes to standards? The appropriateness of standards should be determined before those are set in place as standards. It shouldn't be something to pick and choose from after the fact.

 

[NetRyder]

Thurrott is making a huge issue about nothing. If Acid2 is so crucial, why exactly is he using a browser (Firefox) that doesn't pass the test either?

I find it amazing that someone would call for a boycott right at a time when the IE team is actually doing something to correct the mistakes they made in the past. Give them a flipping chance before pouncing on them, people. Did anyone see the list of CSS fixes that have been checked in to the Beta 2 code-base already? It's a pretty extensive list that should fix most of the major issues that we have been having as web devs with IE6 today.

If there's an issue that's not on the list, but that's affecting you as a web developer, why not leave a comment on the IEBlog asking them to look into it? Several people have already started doing that, but have, at the same time, commended the team for their effort. Of course, people like Paul who have no clue about web development (Ryan just pointed out that the guy uses Frontpage 6.0 for WinSupersite...genius) cannot possibly offer any kind of constructive feedback, so this kind of sensationalistic bullcrap is the next best thing to get instant readership. It's the same tactic people like Dvorak and Orlowski have been using all this while. The useless stir that they cause all over the web is exactly what they're after in the first place.

 

[muzikool]

I've always that that Thurrott demonstrated a broad perspective, which kind of eliminates him from having educated opinions on extremely specific details such as this. I like his thorough reviews of software, but I'm not particularly fond of this new campaigning strategy he's got going. Aside from that though, what I found interesting in his article was the quote from Chris Wilson concerning the Web standards and what the browser team deemed appropriate. I was hoping someone could further explain what Chris meant by that.

 

[NetRyder]

I like many of Paul's reviews too, actually. As someone mentioned on C9, it seems like the Paul who writes on that blog and the one who does reviews on WinSuperSite are two different people. Anyway, I won't rail on him anymore. He's a person. People make mistakes. He'll eventually take it back just like he did when he called Longhorn a "train-wreck" based on a build meant solely for driver development.

Anyway, what I personally gathered from Chris Wilson's post was that they're currently focusing on web standards issues that are most critical...in other words, issues that the largest number of web devs have to deal with. The Acid2 test presents issues that most people don't even have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. It's an extremely stringent test, which explains why not a single "released" browser passes it yet (and yes, I know about the CVS version of WebKit).

The team cannot focus only on standards. There are millions of regular users (far more end-users than developers in the world, remember) that don't even know what the W3C is. They're more concerned about things like security, useability etc. People railed on the IE team because they had the only browser in existence without support for tabs. They have to work on these issues as well. They added tabs, important security features like the phishing filter and low-rights mode, etc. At the same time, they addressed some of the most immediate issues that affect web devs as well.

Yes, they made mistakes along the way, and from what I can see, they've realized that and are making amends. People need to relax and give them some time. Things don't happen overnight. Firefox wasn't even close to what it is now at the Phoenix 0.1 stage, but we gave it a chance and it matured into something great. Calling for a boycott at this stage is a knee-jerk reaction. Let's wait till RTM before making judgements. There will still be issues even then, no doubt. But many of the biggest problems will have been addressed, and they can then work on the remaining issues for IE 7.x and onwards.

 

[muzikool]

Definitely a knee-jerk reaction considering it's Beta 1. I thought the boycott idea was absurd based on that fact alone.

 

[NetRyder]

To add to that, there are a couple of posts from members of the Web Standards Project group (WaSP) that are very encouraging, and in sharp contrast to the opinions of clueless journalists:

In a must-read post on IEBlog, Chris Wilson lays out some of the web standards fixes planned for IE7.

While it doesn't hit everything we might like, and we won't see most of it until Beta 2, it's a pretty impressive list for a release that by all accounts is primarily about security and UI features.

Even more impressive than the contents of the list, though, is that it's even available outside the Redmond campus. Having been through this 'work with Microsoft' thing once before in the late '90s, I can assure you this sort of openness is a radical departure from the Microsoft of old and as good a reason as any for optimism that this is just the beginning, and we can expect even more and better in IE 7.5 and beyond.

Three cheers for transparency! Three cheers for openness! Three cheers for standards in IE7!

The post after it, entitled "That's why it's called a beta" is a bit lengthy to quote here, but it's a very level-headed look at the whole situation: http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2005_07.html#a000540

 

[muzikool]

Nice post there. :up:

 

[NetRyder]

Nice post there. :up:

Yeah, and unfortunately it's the kind of stuff that gets buried under the sensationalism from the Dvoraks and Thurrotts of the world...

 

[vern]

Hoffman is really letting Paul Thurrott have it. Sounds like some pent up anger to me. heh. If he's not careful he'll turn himself into what he hates.

 

[kcnychief]

Looks like Paul put his tail between his legs and caved in....

It's amusing but disconcerting to me that what I write can be so widely misunderstood. In an article earlier this week about Microsoft's plans for improving the Web standards compliance in Internet Explorer (IE) 7, I repeated a recommendation I've been making to Windows users for years: Boycott IE.

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/47281/47281.html?Ad=1