how do new refineries help oil shortage?

[ThePatriot]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

Refining, not supply looks to be the problem.

"A global shortage of refining capacity that can profitably process OPEC's incremental heavy crude oil output is the real problem," Barclays analyst Kevin Norrish said.

Source: http://au.biz.yahoo.com/050407/33/40be.html

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

the only problem is supply...refining takes care of itself when there is a return...of course it becomes much easier if your pal is giving you a free ride

 

[ThePatriot]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

Well, when you look at things like:
"No new refinery has been built in the United States for the past 30 years."
and
"Ahead of US summer driving season starting next month, when many Americans take to their cars on vacation, refineries were battling to turn enough crude oil into gasoline."
It kind of looks like refining capability is the issue to me. The numbers speak for themselves.
And if supply IS part of the issue, then they best get them holes going up in Yukon Territory.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

thepatriot...I have no problems building refineries...a company that needs to do it should do it

why should I pay for that?

now, what is the current capacity of refinement compared actuall refinement in America...I'd like to see that figure

and even if that's 100% (which I suspect it's not), why should I pay for a bussiness to invest in itself?

the problem in America is supply...when refineries are needed and there is a return, refineries will be created by bussiness

this is the way bussiness is supposed to worl

 

[VenomXt]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

why should I pay for that?

dont get me wrong im totaly with you on this. BUT the issue is with the rules and regs in place no refinery has been built in the LAST 30 YEARS! something needs to be done to grease this issue. Im not saying this needs to be a trend but a new refiners need to be built and they wont be unless we do something because of greedy corporations. The fact is Supply is not the only issue. IF it was when the BP refinery east of Houston Tx, blew up then my gas shoudnt of went up by 30 cents and stayed at that for awhile just not its dropping down by 5-10. This had nothing to do with supply. This was a refinery issue. If we dont have new refinerys and say a couple of the larger refinerys are hit by something (terorist, nautural disaster, accident) then price will jump super high. when the texas refinery had the SMALL area of it taken out that basically puts higher octan into Premium gases and caused a huge spike. Imagine what would happen if something took out the basic operations of a refinery and put them down for months even years.

And as with any basic macro economic class lecture. One issue is never by any means the only issue.

One other thing Opec, venuzela strikes, and china are things we arent able to influence at the moment too much. We have to do other things to stabilize.

 

[ThePatriot]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

I see and agree with both of your points. In a normal business environment perris is exactly correct. That is the way it should work. Period. But there are extenuating circumstances that VenomXt brings up that drive this particular issue. Not Bush's fault, these regulations were put into place way before his term.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

will respond later...at work

 

[skizo]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

FFS...SUPPLY IS NOT THE ISSUE!!!


Listen to what just a few of the members here on the board are saying.

Is the crude underground running out right now? Is the Arab world stating that we can only purchase 'X' amount of crude? Is the world using gasoline faster than the oil can be pumped from the ground? The answer is NO. If this is what you're basing your "supply" theory on, you're wrong. Now, if you're saying that it's a supply issue because we need more refineries to get the product out there, then you're partially right.

the only problem with the price of gas is the price of crude...that's it...supply

The first part of your statement is true, the latter is false. Here's an example: Do you think I have to pay $6 for a beer when I go see the Astros play because the price is driven by a lack of supply? No. I have to pay that much because the price has slowly gone up due to their marketing department pushing the price to get the most money they can for the product. That's exactly what the Saudi's have decided to do. Think of the Saudi gov't as an independent business with a product that everyone needs. They've finally realised that they push the prices of crude and we'll pay for it.

I'm just glad that I live in Texas where most of the refineries are located and get cheaper gas than the rest of the world. Actually, I love Texas for sooo many reasons, but that's just an added bonus.

I think you should check your figures there... .80 cents? I'm assuming you mean 80 cents

you said .80 cents as in 0.80 cents!

p.s. - 0.80, .80, and .8 all mean the same thing.
Whether or not I put the cents symbol or typed "cents", it is correct.

 

[zeke_mo]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

I think its really funny how people will complain till they are blue about gas prices. Its these same people that drive SUVs, dont car pool, and work 50+ miles from their job. This is simple economincs here; if we dont buy their gas, they will have no choice but to lower the price. I know its hard to do something like that, but if we dont want to pay an arm and a leg for gas, it needs to be done. Its just fun to watch people complain and do nothing about it . I have been riding my bike to work, and where ever I can reach with it. If more people would be more conscience about their driving habbits, and make sure do conserve their gas, prices would go down. Well, I am done. /rant

 

[Petros]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

Supply is easy to produce. You can drill and put up a derrick in virtually no time with a minimal amount of agencies involved in less than a month with a minimal impact on the environment. The refineries in the works will take five to eight years to build, which is why the chains need to be put in motion now.

A refinery just can't be put up as fast as an oil-producing hole in the ground. There are no predefined patters for a refinery. You have to talk to machinists, chemical corporations, steel producers, lawyers, EPA, private environmental groups, do studies on the impact of the refinery on the economy, and a host of other things that don't immediately come to me.

Newer refineries will be more environmentally friendly, too. Why put all the refineries in the hands of countries that care less about the environment than we do?

Gas prices are getting dishonest anyway. Gas costs three times as much as it did fifteen years ago, yet nearly every other consumer product has either gotten cheaper or gone up a little. It's high time we made our own.

By the way:

he says that putting un regulated refineries on military land will somehow ease the shortage of oil

What news story is this from, or is this an "oh, everyone knows THAT" kind of thing? If he really did say this, it would override the Federal Facility Compliance Act of 1991, which requires DoD installments to be inspected annually by the EPA, and makes them subject to fines and penalties paid from their O&M budgets.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

Supply is easy to produce

if "supply was easy to produce", we wouldn't be buying oil at obscene prices from countries that we don't get along with

we'd be "easily producing the supply" we need

the price of crude is the only problem...supply is the only issue in America...all other issues resolve themselfs around the market


will respond to the posts on point later today conerning our refining capabilities

 

[VenomXt]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

.supply is the only issue in America...

paris you have hundreds if not more of good posts stop being pig headed about this no one is saying it inst a huge issue but come on. Are you even reading what others are saying.

Supply is not the only issue in America. I have stated everything i could say again above. But this statment is wrong. If pure "book" economics worked for everything **** would be predicted so much faster and accurate.

The fact is our refining capabilitys are aged. We could import say 1000 billion gallons of crude. but that is totaly worthless without us refining it at the same rate. Yes we can import allready refined gas/oil but that markes it up so much now.

 

[LeeJend]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

BULL**** ALERT- There is no shortage of "oil".

There is a shortage of "Light Sweet Crude" which is what the Saudi's and a few others have for sale. Heavy crude (thick having less of the volatile components that refine easily into gasoline) and sour crude (high sulfer) are still running at $35 USD per barrel.

New refineries that are designed to process heavy and sour crudes can use the $35 a barrel stuff. That is why we need new refineries. They can't shut down existing refineries to convert them to process the cheap oil without causing a shortage of gasoline. Refineries are running near capacity.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

paris you have hundreds if not more of good posts stop being pig headed

ok,will try

Supply is not the only issue in America.

I'm hardly saying supply is the only issue in America...I'm saying supply is the issue that is at hand when we are talking about the price of a gallon of gas.

if we take out the intire expense of refining oil, supply is still the issue, we have to but oil at these rates because we don't have enough...refining what we buy is not driving the price of a gallon of gas

creating more refineries doesn't do anything what so ever to address the problem of supply in America

We could import say 1000 billion gallons of crude. but that is totaly worthless without us refining it at the same rate.

so, you are thinking that there is crude sitting around doing nothing?

The fact is our refining capabilitys are aged.

refineries apply for and get permits to renovate their refineries all the time

I'll cede the point you are trying to make if you can show me that our refinement capabilities are close to 100%

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

BULL**** ALERT- There is no shortage of "oil".
New refineries that are designed to process heavy and sour crudes can use the $35 a barrel stuff. That is why we need new refineries.

if this is true, then I agree with the point that refineries will help

HOWEVER

if it were true, then the sector would find plenty of reason and PLENTY of profit to invest without help from their bud

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

there are extenuating circumstances that VenomXt brings up that drive this particular issue. Not Bush's fault, these regulations were put into place way before his term.

regulations were put into place by you and me...not Bush

it's not Bushe's place to do an end run around the protections we put in place for a reason

if the reason we put the protections are flawed, then we need to change those protections so they reflect reality

or do we live in a country where the head of state can change dissregard the protections we put into place whenever he thinks it's a good idea?

 

[Xie]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

I think its really funny how people will complain till they are blue about gas prices. Its these same people that drive SUVs, dont car pool, and work 50+ miles from their job. This is simple economincs here; if we dont buy their gas, they will have no choice but to lower the price. I know its hard to do something like that, but if we dont want to pay an arm and a leg for gas, it needs to be done. Its just fun to watch people complain and do nothing about it . I have been riding my bike to work, and where ever I can reach with it. If more people would be more conscience about their driving habbits, and make sure do conserve their gas, prices would go down. Well, I am done. /rant

Thanks thats how I feel also. Saw last night on the news that SUV's make up 25% of ALL car sales in the US. If you use more gas then any other place on earth your eventually going to take it in the arse (excuse the language). If you don't wanna pay so much, don't waste so much. How many people actually drive an SUV offroad? 0.1%?

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

dont get me wrong im totaly with you on this. BUT the issue is with the rules and regs in place no refinery has been built in the LAST 30 YEARS!

the reason refineries haven't been built is that there wouldn't be the proper return according to the protections we put into place to sage guard our future

something needs to be done to grease this issue.

if the safeguards you and me put into place that were intended to protect our future and are children are flawed, they need to be revisited and changed by us, not one man to do whatever he wants for his pals...there is no king in America who changes what we do at his whim

The fact is Supply is not the only issue.

it's the only issue we are confronted with...I'll grant that we need to look to the future and resolve issues that might arise...as I said...if we need to revisit the safeguards we put into place, that's what we need to do

If we dont have new refinerys and say a couple of the larger refinerys are hit by something (terorist, nautural disaster, accident) then price will jump super high.

certainly, national security is all that matters to this man

I think it would be a fine idea to build refineries as a redundancy at the ready for situation that concerns our national security.

that would be a national defense project

it wouldn't be a gift to oil companies and the pals of the president..these national defense projects wouldn't run at the expense of the environment unless there was a security issue that running the refineries might alleviate

And as with any basic macro economic class lecture. One issue is never by any means the only issue.

of course, but this is just a discussion board and all this is consolidated for the sake of discussion

 

[Perris Calderon]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

the following statement: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, (the Clean Air Act), are so bureaucratic and so tough to overcome that refiners can't get a permit.

from what I can research;

Environmental regulations haven't at all prevented new refineries from being built in this country....for instance, from 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency ( the EPA ) had a permit request for a new refinery one time. .. once!

on teh other hand, oil companies are always applying for, (and getting) permits to modify expand and developer the refineries they already have...so they can make these as contemporary as they need to be according to current technology

in addition, self inflicted industry consolidation is what's limiting competition in oil refinery, not the protection from environment poison we asked for

The biggest oil refiners in the United States (Exxon Mobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) control OVER HALF of domestic refining capacity.

to contrast, ten years ago, these controlled right around a third of our capacity in America

1995-2002, 97% there were more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners.

this is the rub...conolidation

if this didn't happen, those refiners would be competing and developing the refineries this administration wants to give to his pals

 

[VenomXt]

Re: how do ne refineries help oil shortage?

hehe server must be messing up you posted that last one 3 times.. lol or are you trying to make a point lol. right now i cant comment buys but i will later.