So what do the Iraqi Government/People think?

Discussion in 'Green Room' started by leedogg, Dec 17, 2003.

  1. leedogg

    leedogg Gojyone kawaiiiiiiii!

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    Readme

    Regardless of political agendas, percieved conspiracies, and/or any other motives, what it all comes down to is that it doesnt matter what you or I think, It matters what the Iraqi's themselves think. When all is said and done, history will speak for itself.

    This quote struck me as on the money:

    "Settling scores with the United States should not be at the cost of helping to bring stability to the Iraqi people," he said. "This squabbling over political differences takes a backseat to their daily struggle for security, jobs, basic freedoms, and all the rights the United Nations is chartered to uphold."
     
  2. kitct

    kitct Guest

    Another article on the same subject:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/i...00&en=2aedd578f1c193c5&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

    The part that sticks out to me is:

    Iraqi Minister Scolds U.N. for Inaction Regarding Hussein
    By WARREN HOGE
    Published: December 16, 2003

    UNITED NATIONS, Dec. 16 — Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, accused the United Nations Security Council today of having failed to help rescue his country from Saddam Hussein, and he chided member states for bickering over his beleaguered country's future.

    "Settling scores with the United States-led coalition should not be at the cost of helping to bring stability to the Iraqi people," Mr. Zebari said in language unusually scolding for an occupant of the guest seat at the end of the curving Security Council table.

    "Squabbling over political differences takes a back seat to the daily struggle for security, jobs, basic freedoms and all the rights the U.N. is chartered to uphold," he said.

    Taking a harsh view of the inability of quarreling members of the Security Council to endorse military action in Iraq, Mr. Zebari said, "One year ago, the Security Council was divided between those who wanted to appease Saddam Hussein and those who wanted to hold him accountable.

    "The United Nations as an organization failed to help rescue the Iraqi people from a murderous tyranny that lasted over 35 years, and today we are unearthing thousands of victims in horrifying testament to that failure."

    He declared, "The U.N. must not fail the Iraqi people again."
     
  3. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    my gawd

    what matters in america is that american children have died.

    with the way the press is promoting this president, all his lies will not be recorded at all.

    I don't give a flying poopy that iraqis think americans can die on their behalf...

    sorry

    and when our leader wants us to lay our lives down, he better not lie to get his peasure.

    this little war was not about liberating people that hate every breath we take was it...it was about weapons of mass destruction...a clear and present danger...gauranteed...remember?

    tell us the truth, and americans decide...

    this is america you know...not a dictatorship that the head of state is able to do and say anything he wants in order to have his pleasure.
     
  4. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    it is not the role of the UN to overturn soverign nations established governments... perhaps the coalition appointed foreign minister would be wise to check up on that little fact :)

    the security council was divided over whether or not the US had a basis to attack Iraq on the grounds that Iraq possessed WMD's and carried a real threat to use them v/s the world...

    the UN never sanctioned war... perhaps the foreign minister should be equally miffed @ members of the PREVIOUS coalition who called for the Iraqi people to rise up only to sit back and watch as they were massacred (it was mainly bush sr. who made the call btw) ...

    oh how short memories are...

    -edit- further other nations wishing to work with coalition members to help iraqis must work under the auspices of the coalition which is not likely to work for some nations... working under the auspices of teh UN v/s the auspices of the coalition are 2 vastly different things... Kofi Annan himself said (and this bears true from comments from coalition personnel) that he has yet to be informed by the coalition troops on how the UN forces will be used...

    misguided/ill-informed comments by unknowing puppets do not make wrong idealogies right...
     
  5. Kr0m

    Kr0m Moderator

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    Bush has changed his tune now that they haven't found the WMDs. Now it's all about charging Hussein for the war crimes committed against the Kurds during the Iran war (which both countries are responsible for) and other things like rapes etc...
    Show me a country in that region today that don't have brutal leaders... Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Israel? and the list goes on... there's quite a few countries responsible for mass killings in the area, is the US going to go after them to?

    This is all just a bunch of horses**t.

    On a sidenote, is there anyone else out there that when you see & hear Bush on TV, does he remind you of some sort of goofy cartoon character?
     
  6. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    that is one informative post.

    minus my obvious emotion, well said indeed sazar
     
  7. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    here's the interesting part, and what everybody must remember

    at the very onset, bush said;

    "this is not about regime change, it's about weapons of mass destruction"

    Saddam can stay in power, all he need do is to allow the inspectors in.

    then, after plenty of saber rattling, when the inspectors were going where ever they wanted, and they kept saying...

    "ummm..no weapons here"

    bush then had to change the standard to;

    "you must turn over those weapons that don't exist"

    "once you do that, you're fine, you can stay put"

    it was most amusing that when the inspectors were saying " it's not likely bush was right at all, there are no wmd's"

    that's when bush became most urgent to have his little war wasn't it

    so, now, as a miserable failure in every claim he made, he tries to revise the history of his war mongering

    but what bothers me most of all is how this American press has turned into such puppets of the republican party...letting this history b e re written on bushes behalf with hardly a whimper

    very scary times we live in
     
  8. Geffy

    Geffy Moderator Folding Team

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    oh no not another thread like this
     
  9. PseudoKiller

    PseudoKiller Zug Zug

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    here we go again... Geffy please tell me it aint so... not this soon before Christmas...
     
  10. Kr0m

    Kr0m Moderator

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  11. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    very interesting interviews Kr0m...however, even though it seems to make saddam less a monster, that's not my point of all of this.

    my point is that we must hold our leaders at the very minimmum, that they tell the truth when they propose sending our children off to die as a defense of this country.

    and when we find out our leaders have lied and forged, and forced others to lie and forge, we must hold them to account.

    now, the interviews you posted are interesting and controversial, and make an amazing claim...that we are lying when we say saddam gassed his own people, that it was in iran...a good case too.

    I would like to hear a point by point rebuttle, so I hold judgement on weather or not this interview holds weight.

    so you see, I don't care what monster saddam is or is not, and this interview doesn't affect the events as they occured

    all I care about is that the leader of this nation wanted a war, and he would say and do whatever it would take to have one

    to remind everyone exactly why bush claimed he wanted this war;

    from the n.y times;

    Bush told reporters as he was meeting with the Kenyan and Ethiopian leaders, "For the sake of peace, he (Saddam) must disarm. There are inspectors inside the country now and the inspectors are there not to play a game of hide and seek. They are there to verify whether or not Saddam Hussein is going to disarm."

    "... US will provide the intelligence to UN inspectors"


    and so of course, this is the task, and war and regime change is avoided if there are no weapons of mass destruction...this is what everyone must remember... then when the inspectors told us all that "nope, no weapons, and yes, we can go wherever we want", that's when bush went nutzo, and started the war anyway

    now Fleischer;

    "The President of the United States and the Secretary of Defence would not assert as plainly and bluntly as they have that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction if it was not true, and if they did not have a solid basis for saying it,"


    and powell;

    "We are absolutely sure they (Iraq) have continued to develop weapons of mass destruction, and we are sure they have in their possession weapons of mass destruction,"

    and bush goes on and on that all saddam has to do is get rid of the weapons that are not there, and then he has our blessing.

    that's why this catching of saddam is such a non event...he didn't need to be caught, since there were no weapons of mass destruction

    catching saddam was never an issue, it became an issue only at bushes failure...in order to make it look lie a success
     
  12. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Has anyone seen that dead horse around? You know, the one that shows back up repeatedly in The Lounge? I swear it's around here some... oh wait, I found it.
     
  13. Kr0m

    Kr0m Moderator

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    Yeah, I guess it's a shame that we actually discuss something that really matters in the world.
     
  14. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Yes, it is a shame that we discuss it in 5+ threads in the same forum. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    muzikool... if there is a problem with the contents of the thread... it will be dealt with...

    we do not discriminate on the issues in question per se and therefore if there is more than 1 thread on relatively similar topics we tend to let it fly :)

    you will note certain threads have been closed due to various complaints/posters stepping over the limits...

    however note that there is new information and new angles being introduced all the time... different posters start a thread with a certain question in mind and we will continue to promote this...

    discussion is not bad... :) certain threads (ie intel v/s amd or nvidia v/s ati) are going to be treated differently but political threads are a different matter and should be dealt with in kind :)
     
  16. leedogg

    leedogg Gojyone kawaiiiiiiii!

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    Dealer, what you're saying about the US making up excuses to go into Iraq and whatnot are good points and very valid, however the reason I posted this was not to go back to the subject of Justification for the US to invade Iraq, it was to demonstrate the utter failure of the UN as an international regulatory body. So even if you were right, perhaps the US should not have even had to have done any of this to begin with. This should have been an issue resolved by the UN a long time ago in the first place. The fact that they RUN AWAY from hotzones does not inspire or indicate any sense of reliability. As a matter of fact just a few minutes with Google will give you all the details about UN malfeasance under the Food for Oil program.

    The UN brokers the Iraqi Oil, contracts a French bank to escrow the proceeds, French and other UN-tied orgs fulfill the material goods orders of the Iraqis, charged against that account. Many of the 'routine' orders take over a year to fulfill, while the money earns interest and fees in non-Iraqi hands. The UN itself charges a ~15%(?) 'Handling & Administration' fee, which puts $1.6 BILLION in their own pockets (yet they had the balls to petition for $200+ Million the other day to remodel their DONATED Headquarters). Much of the money is spent on luxury goods for Saddam.

    While every uninformed Peacenik cries that the sanctions are 'killing Iraqi babies', Iraq is re-selling medical aid materials on the Black / Grey market. Saddam builds ~25 of his 50+ Palaces between '91 and '02 - during 'Oil For Food'. While 'iraqi babies' die. And while his dozen separate security orgs are murdering an avg of 90 iraqis / day.

    The UN and the Franco-German-Russian contract holders counted $$$ and wanted to KEEP it that way, profitting off the suffering of the Iraqi people.

    So tell me, whats the greater lie? The US for its reasons to go to war or the UN for its reasons not to go to war? Again, I will simply look at the outcome and let history speak for itself.
     
  17. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Fair enough Sazar, but with all due respect to the mods (who do a fantastic job), the topic of this thread has been ignored for the most part.

    Leedogg clearly stated that "Regardless of political agendas, percieved conspiracies, and/or any other motives..." "what do the Iraqi Government/People think?" Reading through this thread, there is more "Bush this, Bush that" than anything to do with the Iraqi people and their feelings. I find Leedogg's topic very interesting and I would like to see conversation regarding that aspect of the current situation.
     
  18. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    lsimple...this thread was intended to provoke the idea that this war was a good idea

    I intend to hold any notion of that sort up to a severe test...to test the original purpose, but more, those that think the original purpose is not at issue

    I didn't, nor will start a thread of this nature, however, I will first listen to the information posted, and then post accordingly.

    believe this if you will or not...the first thing that I would like is that this war have a final result that was worth the lives of my countrymen...when that presents itself, I too will fall in line and say this after all was good,,,but that may or may not happen...I sure hope it does

    the course of most human conversation demands that it evolve

    those people that start political threads do so to invoke conversation, and there will be emotion from all camps, when it comes to politics, religion, and pagefiles..(HA...i KNEW i COULD GET THAT IN!!!!!)

    anyway, when political conversations appear to you to be redundant, this is fine...wait for a conversation that suits you, that you would like to keep the discussion going forward

    me, I am offended that anyone think it's "beating a dead horse" that I believe boys and girls are dying as a re election campaign...I will beat that dead horse till he breaths, or untill I'm shown that it is worth this price we pay

    ok...my sermon is done
     
  19. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    To me, the dead horse is what is being said over and over, not the issues at hand. If you knew me personally, then you would know that I very much care about current events, and that I don't take our troops for granted or not think about what they have been through.

    Now here I go with the "bright side" of things again. I really enjoy hearing the GOOD news that comes out of what our troops are doing in Iraq. Schools being re-opened, women getting to work... I have heard countless stories of Iraqi people whose lives are better today than they ever were before.

    Wait, I know... we didn't go there for the people. We went there to save our butts from the WMD that was about to be used against us. Well, sometimes I care more about those people than I do about our own. We are blessed here and most of us have enjoyed free lives. At least our young men and women who sacrificed themselves were able to enjoy that freedom for some time. I think it's awesome that those Iraqi people can have that now... and don't tell me that they don't experience freedom, because I've heard the stories. For the time being, those stories hold my patience while the hunt for WMD continues.
     
  20. leedogg

    leedogg Gojyone kawaiiiiiiii!

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    Why is it that most people consider the war in Bosnia good, but the war in Iraq bad, when the issues underlying them are pretty much identical? Except for one key difference. Oil. Because of this one detail, Iraq becomes a political issue.