Nvidias LIES

Discussion in 'Graphics Cards' started by Terrahertz, May 25, 2003.

  1. Terrahertz

    Terrahertz Extinction Agenda Political User Folding Team

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    After reading on the front page about the 3Dmark 2003 cheat that Nvidia was pulling with their cards I find them to be really pathetic right now. You guys really are something. ATI is handing you your @ss so you cheat.
    Are the Nvidia fans upset like I am:mad:
    What do you guys think?
    Thanks for the heads up Sazar
     
  2. Kush

    Kush High On Life!

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    yeah man i am, im ganna wait until after the summer again to upgrade my pc, ill check which new graphics cards come out if any, and if not ill look at more reviews of the 9800 vs the 5900, i think ill get the 9800 though, cuz its more seems to be more promising.
     
  3. canadian_divx

    canadian_divx Canadian_divx

    well first off yea i am pissed off that they needed to do that, second, ati has also done this too but i dont think to the extenct that nvidia has, and third, most of the gamers that i know encluding my self dont go by what a menchmark that has never made a real game says, we go by how the games play on it not what some other program does on it, and as long as there is pisture quality and at the most 30fps then it is good. but it is very shamefull that they needed to resort to this to get people to buy there cards
     
  4. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    ati has taken the high road and addressed its optimizations...

    they did nothing to change the way 3dmark03 really works... it is the renaming of functions (2 of them) to work better with their architecture... which is considered a valid optimization... they are not lowering precision or clipping the scene like nvidia has decided to do... however ati is REMOVING these optimizations..

    reading nvidia's response this does not seem to be their intention...

    they are flat out blaming futuremark for blackmarking them as well as implicating that ati is involved in this fracas... even though it was ET and b3d that came out with the info first off...

    note : nvidia's ps 2.0 and vertex shader performance is abysmal... I don't really care so much about their scores as the fact that their shader performance is WELL below what I would expect... i.e it is broken in hardware...

    by artificially speeding this up through cheating in drivers this implies the product is a GOOD performer in dx9 level shader perforamnce...

    thats BS as we all know now... as a product to run current games... anything above a gf4 ti 4200/ati radeon 9500pro is good enough...

    for future games were shader performance is @ a premium... things do not look good for nvidia unless they can find a way to get game developers to do some fancy work to cover up its hardware's deficiencies..

    yes.. on paper nvidia's FX products (5800/5900) are excellent and appear better than ati's products...

    BUT... while ati's products are designed per directx 9 specs... nvidia's products are a little lacking... there IS a performance hit when dealing with fp16 or fp32 precision... dx9 specifies fp24 which is what ati's products do ALL the time...

    nvidia's FX gpu's natively support integer (fx 12 I believe) and floating point 16 and floating point 32... but the products generally render scenes using fx12/fp16 RATHER than fp32...

    the quality difference between fp16/fp32 is not that great though there is a quite noticeable performance hit... however if the product is performing dx9 operations with fp16 performance.. that is not following the dx9 API...

    it is unfair to ati which has decided to follow the standards and does so properly...

    perhaps as more fud comes out about nvidia people will understand better why I despise their ethics and the 'values' they hold dear...
     
  5. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    sry.. forget to answer one other thing :)

    benchmarks such as 3dmark03 actually give a representation of performance expected... this is a dx9 benchmark and does have ps 2.0 and vertex shader tests too... how else can you tell if a card can handle future products ?

    and fyi... most game benches that you see are similar in fashion to 3dmark03.. ie timedemo's... they are NOT real games per se... they are the rendering of the same scene from the exact same POV all the time in most cases.. just like 3dmark03...

    ergo... you should not test ANY results from ANY benches if you do not want to use 3dmark03...

    but then how will one have the ability to test a product for performance other than to shell out their hard earned bucks on it and TRY it in real life ?

    that is WHY 3dmark03 is a valid benchie IMO no matter how badly one thinks it is written... since it is the main dx9 benchie out right now... eventually there will be more dx9 benchies coming out that will show performance @ dx9 specs...
     
  6. Electronic Punk

    Electronic Punk Administrator Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    Optimisation is one thing, when you take shortcuts that will affect quality to boost performance, that is something different altogether.

    Shame ATI has voluntarily decided to revert their functions, its an act of goodwill i know, but its a shame. Hopefully the engineers from futuremark and ati can look into the matter properly and find this a true optimisation.
     
  7. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    I think it is a postive actually... and hopefully will lead to other IHV's deciding to leave benchmarks designed like this well alone...

    it is just not possible to modify things without it looking improper...
     
  8. canadian_divx

    canadian_divx Canadian_divx

    ok i u got some good points there LOL even tho i was totaly shot down but after all that i can pissed at nvidia and i just thought about it right now that i do own more ATI products than nvidia but with the benchmark thing in my opinion i belive that they chould show the top game performance out today and not a benchmark, and the people should not have to do it, it should be the companies that do it to sell there product
     
  9. Electronic Punk

    Electronic Punk Administrator Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    You can't always be 100% certain that this optimisation was made just for 3dmark tho.

    Sad if it is, but thats why there are driver updates to add these fixes and optimisations.
     
  10. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    there are many suggestions currently being offered and that is one of the ones out there :)

    personally I have no real problems with the way thngs are benchmarked other than the fact that certain IHV's (hint hint) strong arm reviewers to benchmark things a certain way...

    this does not lead to a fair and proper benchmarking situation and if the IHV's are the only ones benchmarking.. it will lead to a few situations...

    nvidia is of course touting thei doom3 performance...

    :)

    bear in mind during those benchies it is HIGHLY likely nvidia's FX gpu's path == fp16 and ati's r3x0 path == fp24 hence the performance will be slower...

    but if both cards perform on the STANDARD arb2 path... nvidia cards perofrmance == 1/2 that of the r3x0 cards...

    driver optimizations cannot fix broken hardware... let me reiterate that point... only hardware engineering can fix that...
     
  11. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    ati's official statement proves this EP.. I am not making this up :)

    look @ www.rage3d.com for more info on this for ati's response

    ati's card specifically changed the names of functions related to sky and water... precision and everything else was handled per reference but it took advantage of ati's architecture...

    ati did the right thing IMO by coming out with a response IMMEDIATELY... as well as pointing out what was done and what they are doing about it...

    nvidia's response is available all over the web... they make no mention of their own cheats in 3dmark03 however...

    btw... there are certain issues related to Fx gpu's above the 5200 model number related to splinter cell benchmarks... anomalies seen in the benchmarks but NOT in the game...

    this is being looked @ and should not be considered anything other than an interesting discussion point @ this time... :)

    cheers...
     
  12. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    [​IMG]

    something to change the mood...

    props to kaichan from[H] for chopping skillz... :D
     
  13. Electronic Punk

    Electronic Punk Administrator Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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  14. canadian_divx

    canadian_divx Canadian_divx

    LOL nice one
     
  15. Geffy

    Geffy Moderator Folding Team

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    thats good
     
  16. Terrahertz

    Terrahertz Extinction Agenda Political User Folding Team

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    Thats the truth
    That pic is funny LOL
     
  17. canadian_divx

    canadian_divx Canadian_divx

    Sazar if i may ask what do you do for a living?
     
  18. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    I am a college student studying computer science/engineering... planning to have my masters all done within a coupla years :)

    have a minor in history and am working on a minor in business though thats on the backburner (need cash for classes :( )

    I work part time on the campus with computers... helping put computers and stuff together...

    I also build computers for my m8's and they usually trade stuff in return... :D like new struts and stuff on my car or hooking me up with 40% of cost price on shoes/rackets and the like :)
     
  19. canadian_divx

    canadian_divx Canadian_divx

    how did i know that was comming LOL cool
     
  20. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    ?

    you asked...