guns? or gun control? discussion

[Perris Calderon]

again, I've seen excellant arguments from both camps...both camps have great friggin points.

I again am in the middle;

someone convince me which is the best policy

 

[buzzstpoint]

The only convincing you should be is this:

2nd amendment

It's your right to carry and bear arms.
I can go round and round with people on this issue and I pick my battles.. Since I'm new here I wont rock the boat too much. I have a few handguns and watch the laws here in Wisconsin.. Right now we have an "Open Carry" law... Meaning I can carry my weapon in a holster for everyone to see.. I want the concealed carry law to get passed.

So you may ask why I want this? or Why I'm in favor or guns? I'll answer it now so I dont have to do it again..

Simply, It's my complete right(privlidge) to carry a weapon under the constitution of the united states. I hold that 2nd amendment to heart and stand by it in the gravest of circumstances.

2nd Amendment (1791)
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed

 

[lynchknot]

I again am in the middle;

Not good to get caught in the crossfire perris.

I like guns. I have a right to own them. I do not hunt or shoot anything alive.

 

[ThePatriot]

The only convincing you should be is this:

2nd amendment

It's your right to carry and bear arms.
I can go round and round with people on this issue and I pick my battles.. Since I'm new here I wont rock the boat too much. I have a few handguns and watch the laws here in Wisconsin.. Right now we have an "Open Carry" law... Meaning I can carry my weapon in a holster for everyone to see.. I want the concealed carry law to get passed.

So you may ask why I want this? or Why I'm in favor or guns? I'll answer it now so I dont have to do it again..

Simply, It's my complete right(privlidge) to carry a weapon under the constitution of the united states. I hold that 2nd amendment to heart and stand by it in the gravest of circumstances.

2nd Amendment (1791)
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed

Excellent! Nothing more need be said.

Edit: ok, one think can be said...or asked if you will...Does anyone REALLY want to be part of a Govt that does not want it's people to have weapons? And keep the National Guard out of it...even they know it doesn't mean them.

 

[Geffy]

did you hear about the dyslexic guy that went into KMart and bought a load of guns and then went off into the forest and came back out a few days later with no guns??


he had misread the 2nd Amendmend and had gone off to exercise his 'right to arm bears'

personally though, I have no disagreements with guns, but I think there should be a ban on bullets. As they say, "Its not the guns that kill people" and they are very correct, its the projectile refered to as a bullet ripping through a persons flesh which does the most damage.

 

[Geffy]

Does anyone REALLY want to be part of a Govt that does not want it's people to have weapons?

when you say weapons are you refering exclusively to firearms, or do you encompass knives, knuckle dusters and so on in that grouping as well. If its just refering to firearms, then I am happy to say that I am glad to be living in and part of a country which doesnt allow members of the public to keep firearms in their homes and about their person.

 

[Sazar]

The only convincing you should be is this:

2nd amendment

It's your right to carry and bear arms.
I can go round and round with people on this issue and I pick my battles.. Since I'm new here I wont rock the boat too much. I have a few handguns and watch the laws here in Wisconsin.. Right now we have an "Open Carry" law... Meaning I can carry my weapon in a holster for everyone to see.. I want the concealed carry law to get passed.

So you may ask why I want this? or Why I'm in favor or guns? I'll answer it now so I dont have to do it again..

Simply, It's my complete right(privlidge) to carry a weapon under the constitution of the united states. I hold that 2nd amendment to heart and stand by it in the gravest of circumstances.

2nd Amendment (1791)
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed

read the date of the ammendment... also note the social climate of the time...

given that fact plus the fact we have more gun related homocide's/accidents/deaths than any other 1st world country I can think of, its beyond high time for a proper adjustment to be made to the laws...

there is not enough gun control legislation, making it easy as pie for those seeking weapons to acquire them...

there is nothing wrong with levying taxes on guns and ammunition in order to pay for legislative actions such as improving locking mechanisms on weapons and the requirements for getting a license in order to acquire/use a weapon...

heck we have license/registration waits for cars.. and we have taxation on cigarettes... why not guns?

gun's don't kill people, people kill people... true... but people with guns are generally the ones comitting the crimes...

 

[ThePatriot]

when you say weapons are you refering exclusively to firearms, or do you encompass knives, knuckle dusters and so on in that grouping as well. If its just refering to firearms, then I am happy to say that I am glad to be living in and part of a country which doesnt allow members of the public to keep firearms in their homes and about their person.

I mean firearms. And I'm glad to be living in a country that allows it.

 

[ThePatriot]

read the date of the ammendment... also note the social climate of the time...

given that fact plus the fact we have more gun related homocide's/accidents/deaths than any other 1st world country I can think of, its beyond high time for a proper adjustment to be made to the laws...

there is not enough gun control legislation, making it easy as pie for those seeking weapons to acquire them...

there is nothing wrong with levying taxes on guns and ammunition in order to pay for legislative actions such as improving locking mechanisms on weapons and the requirements for getting a license in order to acquire/use a weapon...

heck we have license/registration waits for cars.. and we have taxation on cigarettes... why not guns?

gun's don't kill people, people kill people... true... but people with guns are generally the ones comitting the crimes...

The date on the amendment is unimportant. If you use that logic, it negates the entire Bill of Rights as being merely a product of it's time. I don't have a problem with limited licensing...it can sometimes be too easy for a criminal to get ahold of a gun by legal means (he'll get it illegally if he really wants it anyhow). BUT, here's some statistics for you:

* There are 129 million privately owned firearms in the United States according to the September, 1997 FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin.
* There are an estimated 65 million handguns in private circulation in the United States. (FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, 9/1997)
* The fastest growing group of gun owners is women, according to Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns.
* Firearms are used defensively roughly 2.5 million times per year, more than four times as many as criminal uses. This amounts to 2,575 lives protected for every life lost to a gun (Targeting Guns).
* The accidental firearm death rate is at it's lowest point since records were started nearly 100 years ago according to Injury Facts 2000 from the national Safety Council.
* Motor-vehicle accidents, drowning, suffocation, and fires each kill more children under the age of fifteen than do firearms.
* Less than one handgun in 6,500 is ever used in a homicide.

 

[buzzstpoint]

read the date of the ammendment... also note the social climate of the time...

given that fact plus the fact we have more gun related homocide's/accidents/deaths than any other 1st world country I can think of, its beyond high time for a proper adjustment to be made to the laws...

Lemme say this..

Convicted felon.. Has his gun privliges taken away. He/she can't own or purchace a gun legaly... Right? Wrong

I read an article. I'll try to pull it up later tonight.
I Convicted felon wan't a handgun.. He mail orders Parts. Seperatly. Then takes the Gun frame and sends it into the government to get a serial number.. This is totaly legal for him to do and have.. Because it's just a frame of a gun. Not a fireable weapon.. He now puts the newly serialed number frame with all the seperate pieces he ordered.. He now has a weapon obtained legaly and can have.

here's another.. You may remember the assult rifle ban that expired a short time back.. This banned the sale of some assult weapons because some people were getting murdered by them. During this time I could have boughten a soveit made assult rifle with no problems. I want a HI-Cap magazine... Can't buy them. Guess what.. I can buy that Mag and disasemble it and take out the blocker bar and now I have a Hi-Cap mag.

To matter of "Controlling Guns" to taking them out of the hands of the american people who want them is NOT the solution.. You want to Control something... How about we control the issue of Gun safety.

And the issue of controlling the ammunition that fires in a gun.. Nope.. I tell you what.. I had a Walther P22.. fires 22 LR ammo.. lets say we are controlling ammo.. Hi cap ammo.. Now I have to rely on cheap bullets that constinly jam in my gun.

or perhaps the guy that has the Smith and Wesson .50 cal You gonna take away his ammo because it's too big? or perhaps the guys that hunt.. "YOu can't use that ammo".. Now you have to shoot the deer 3 times to kill it.."

Just because of some idiots out there doesn't mean we should all get penalized..

Well that just about enough out of me for now..

 

[Sazar]

none of the stats you put out there will change the fact that we have absolutely crap gun legislation...

I don't really care if someone wants to have a gun and purchases one... it doesn't do much to me as long as that person has been cleared to use the weapon...

I do however have very serious problems with the ease of acquisition of weaponery by the average joe blow on the street...

the rate of crime in a nation such as japan which has far higher population density than america is a fraction of what it is in america... because they have good legislation...

use the weapons all you want... just have legislation in place to protect the average citizen to a degree beyond what is present right now...

 

[buzzstpoint]

the problem with trying to keep the guns off the street from people that normally can't buy a weapon is they think the solution is to severly limit people from buying guns..

This will not stop people from obtaining guns on the "street" This will only Piss off the people when want to bear arms.. In Wisconsin when I buy a handgun I have to wait 2 days before i can pick it up.. I feel this is enough restriction. (I relize there are states that have longer waiting periods) but limiting me on how may guns I can buy or the type of the gun isn't the solution..

there are far worse things out there to worry about..

If you want to control something. How about banning the purchase a pipe, fertalizer, and a wrench at the same time..

 

[Zarband]

I don't know if any of you guys in here like to read, I'm going to assume that you do, considering all the mind numbing statistics that are posted here on a regular basis, also considering that this *is* a message board and all you can do is read. Anyway, some of you may have read Tom Clancy's "Rainbow Six" just finished it myself. In the book he touched on the topics of war, overpopulation, and the environment as they correspond with each other. It was said that the human race is a parasite not intended to live in harmony with the planet and the other organisms living on this planet. Basically that in time, as our population groms the environment will falter and then give out not able to support the demands of an overpopulated planet. In that respect he said that world peace, kids wearing helmets when they ride their bikes, advanced medical care, the constant extension of the human life, and *gun control* will kill more people than all the wars fought throughout history combined. Our aggressive nature as humans, and the wanton disregard for safety or heath in the past was in a way a means of population control. As George Carlin says: "Whatever happened to the kid who eats the most marbles doesn't get to grow up and have kids of his own!"

Although, the death penalty for parking tickets is always an option eh?

 

[Zarband]

the rate of crime in a nation such as japan which has far higher population density than america is a fraction of what it is in america... because they have good legislation...

This is not entirely true Sazar, I'm currently living in Japan. I'm willing to agree on the point that crime here seems to be considerably lower despite much higher population density. However, I'm not willing to accept that it's because of legislation. In Japan they still have the Yakuza, essentially the same thing as the Mafia in Italy or the US. For them, getting guns is just as easy as a felon from the US, or for anyone else for that matter.
In all honesty I would attribute the lack of crime strictly to culture. the Japanese culture revolves almost entirely around politeness. Being polite to total strangers, taking care of your neighbor. Not that I think Americans are crude and don't give a $#!t about each other, but I do think we have a ways to go.
You ever see a Japanese person on the news or anything walking around with one of those little surgical masks on? It's because that person is sick with a cold or the flu, they wear them so they don't make anyone *else* sick. I don't recall running into that kind of thoughtfullness very often back home in the States.

 

[Tuffgong4]

there does need to be tighter laws put in place for people to own guns but I think people who can, should be able to have them.

The problem with gun laws is the politicians are too lazy to let the law abiding citizens keep their rights. WHen they do something they make it a blanket law covering as many people as possible instead of creating the laws to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them.

The biggest problem I see is the gun shows in some (not all) states that pretty much sell to anyone they deem fit. That scares me because some people can just go and buy whatever the hell they want as long as they have the money to do so.

 

[LeeJend]

Gun control doesn't work, just like prohibition didn't work and just like drug control doesn't work. (How many out there are tokin on a refeer while they read this or have had one in the last year? Thank you for funding the Jamaican and Columbian drug rings that murder indiscriminately and finance the street gangs purchase of guns.)

There were 50k traffic deaths each year in the 90's over half attributable to drunk driving until MADD started re-educating the populace and the courts started enforcing the existing laws. That was more drunk driving homicides than gun related homicides each year. Last statistics I saw showed traffic deaths cut in half mainly due to reductions in drunk driving fatalities.

ENFORCE WHAT's ON THE BOOKS. If that doesn't work then talk about tougher laws.

Gun control is bull****. I can make a gun in 30 minutes with minimal tools all I need is a door bolt, sping, whip antenna and peice of wood. There's even easier ways if you want a shotgun. Bullets are just as easy, all you need is a few household chemicals and a peice of copper, lead, plastic, ball bearing, etc. Then there's the "potato" gun which any ten year old can put together out of stuff in his toy box. Not lethal you say? Put a peice of 1/8 inch spring steel in the potato lengthwise.

What would discourage me from doing any of this if guns were banned? How about making sale of illegal guns, use of gun in a crime, posession of illegal firearms mandatory life sentence, no parole, no plea bargaining to lesser crimes allowed.

Punish anyone who uses a gun in a crime as much and as consistantly as drunks on the road and gun crime will drop drastically. Of course then people will go back to stabbing each other like we did in the slums I grew up in. Did you know many Kevlar bulletproff vests won't stop a knife thrust?

Anyone who uses a gun to commit a crime is already a criminal. Making it illegal for him to obtain the gun in the first place is a farce. Want to get a handgun easy? Get behind a cop in a donut shop and stick a knife in him. Take his gun shoot the witnesses and then take his keys, walk out to the car, unlock the shotgun rack and take that too. Then for grins open the trunk and grab the flack vest and tear gas gun too. While you're at it boost the police radio so you can keep track of them while you are on your newly armed crime spree. This is kind of hard on the police. Maybe it would be better to be able to buy a gun at the school yard like you can now.

Guns thinking too small? Next post I'll explain how to make remote controlled car bombs out of garden products and hobby shop toys.

 

[Unleashed]

Gun control is bull****. I can make a gun in 30 minutes with minimal tools all I need is a door bolt, sping, whip antenna and peice of wood. There's even easier ways if you want a shotgun. Bullets are just as easy, all you need is a few household chemicals and a peice of copper, lead, plastic, ball bearing, etc. Then there's the "potato" gun which any ten year old can put together out of stuff in his toy box. Not lethal you say? Put a peice of 1/8 inch spring steel in the potato lengthwise.

Unfortunately this happened all of the South Africa when the ANC and other freedom fighter organisations went against the Apartheid. Simple guns were made with bits of pipe and springs, and shot shotgun cartridges or singe bullets - they were the demise of many a police man (even now you won't find a policeman stopping a taxi with tinted windows in case he gets a shot in the face).

Anyway, back to the matter on hand - I love my guns, and would never part with them if there was anything at all to be done about it, I'm fairly content with the gun laws we have here in England, apart from the banning of handguns, which I think was ridiculous.

Here, we have quite strict regulations; you can't own a gun unless you prove you would use it (i.e being part of a club that you go to regularily), or unless you have a practical purpose (being a gamekeeper, or pest control).
To get a gun, you have to first apply for a slot of that calibre to be put on your licence - this way the government know exactly what weapons are owned by who, and there are very few "free radicals" floating around.

Also, every so often you will have a policeman come round to check out your house and where the firearms are kept (regulations say a locked cabinet bolted to the floor/wall), and see whether you're harbouring anything and if you are mentally stable.