stem cell research

If a fetus is going to be aborted anyway, whats the use of just throwing it away? Would it not be a better idea to get some use out of it?
 
falconguard said:
you can debate it all you want, but ultimately do you have the right to impose your opinion on a woman? Where is the equal right, equal freedom outrage? to argue that you have the right over a womans reproductive process reduces that woman to nothing more than a reproducing factory, with ownership rights to whomever has claim.

I thought we did away with slavery and ownership of people? Is this not the USA?

You make a good point but there is a flaw in your assesment. Men are as involved in the creation of life as women. Men should have a say. If a woman was bearing my child and wanted an abortion, I am going to use every means of the law to stop that because it is as much my responsibility and I am more than happy to accept that. Unless she is in danger medically, I am not going to let her have the abortion if it pertains to my child.

I respect a woman's right to choose and I am extremely pro-choice but I also am not a keen advocate personally of abortion.

Factoring the role of a man in the creation of life, it is disingenious to say that they should have no say. Now if the matter were of a woman I did not make pregnant and the man in her life did not give 2 hoots, I am all for allowing her to do as she pleases. Same in the case of a woman's life being in any medical danger.

Stem cells are cells that are free of any genetic marker that tell them to grow up to be kidneys, livers or brains, hence the word stem, when given the right marker they can be coaxed to grow into something else, as Lord's cornea example. The cells have to be live, aborted fetuses are dead material and thus don't have viable cell use. Stem cells exist in the Zygote and some can even be harvested from umbilicals.

Yes, this is why stem cell research HAS to be continued. The misinformation present in abundant quantities for those against the procedure seems to grossly cloud their view on this matter.
 
Brad said:
If a fetus is going to be aborted anyway, whats the use of just throwing it away? Would it not be a better idea to get some use out of it?
I see your point, but unfortunately by using the fetus it is akin to saying it is ok to abort. It sends the wrong message.
Sazar said:
Factoring the role of a man in the creation of life, it is disingenious to say that they should have no say. Now if the matter were of a woman I did not make pregnant and the man in her life did not give 2 hoots, I am all for allowing her to do as she pleases. Same in the case of a woman's life being in any medical danger.
While I can see issues where a pregnancy might not be the best idea, I must disagree with abortion even in those cases, because in my eyes, it is a very selfish person that would take a babies life because of a "mistake", even if it were to preserve their own life...i.e. medical reasons.
 
It's a question of choice Patriot. We as human's are selfish. We always want more. Longer life, better food, nicer cars and the list goes on.

Abortion is a matter of convenience if you will and I share your view in that it is selfish. However it is a matter of choice and the freedom to make that choice is one of the fundamental principles of this and other countries. Consider that everytime you are masturbating for example, you are in fact destroying potential life, every woman who has a miscarriage or a period is destroying potential life.

People believe life begins at conception, I believe life begins when the fetus is self-sufficient. With our blatant disregard for other animals as well as the manipulation of all facets of the creation of life, or the destruction thereof, it is hypocritical to have these feelings towards a Human fetus simply because it is human. This God complex is what will be our eventual undoing where we believe we are oh so superior to everything else and should hold ourselves to a completely different level.

I don't buy into that. It is only a self-serving mode of thought IMO.
 
I myself don't think that abortion is right. I just don't think that it is my right to impose my view upon others and think that abortion should be illegal. If a woman wants to get an abortion, it is her own business. If she wants to get one, she will get one, illegal or not. I would rather she get it at a medical facility rather than some guy with a hanger. But, the republicans feel that it is their right to police everything and everyone that doesnt affect them.
 
LordOfLA said:
To quote Star Trek: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

however, even in the movie, this is a choice an individual makes or doesn't make on his own behalf, it's not cast upon us, we choose.

ThePatriot said:
it is a very selfish person that would take a babies life because of a "mistake", even if it were to preserve their own life...i.e. medical reasons.

if someone is in shark infested waters, it's not apon us to force anyone to jump in and save that person, some of us would, those of us with families that rely on us might think it would be irresponsible to take this risk

a womens life is ALWAYS in peril for bringing a life into this world, and her life is changed forever, and the ability to have children at a safer time in her life might be lost due to this pregnancy

this choice needs to be hers, not governments
 
Last edited:
Brad said:
I myself don't think that abortion is right. I just don't think that it is my right to impose my view upon others and think that abortion should be illegal. If a woman wants to get an abortion, it is her own business. If she wants to get one, she will get one, illegal or not. I would rather she get it at a medical facility rather than some guy with a hanger. But, the republicans feel that it is their right to police everything and everyone that doesn't affect them.
I agree with this post in the entirety
 
perris said:
I agree with this post in the entirety
I disagree (almost) entirely...I don't think it's right for me to impose my view on other people, male or female...of course, that rule doen't apply to situations where they are taking away another humans life.

Repulicans are trying to do EXACTLY what this country needs. Make you responsible for your own actions/inactions.
 
ThePatriot said:
I disagree (almost) entirely...I don't think it's right for me to impose my view on other people, male or female...of course, that rule doen't apply to situations where they are taking away another humans life.

Repulicans are trying to do EXACTLY what this country needs. Make you responsible for your own actions/inactions.

to be clear;
that rule doen't apply to situations where they are taking away another humans life.

abortion is not taking away a life no matter when you feel life begins, rather, abortion is refusing to let a life to go forward at another persons expense.

If I don't jump into shark infested waters to save someone, I didn't take their life, their predicament did.

a women is not taking the life of a fetus that she is inwilling or unable to provide the life support that the fetus may need

on the abotion issue, I am in the middle and agree with the discussion from both camps

choice and no choice both make sense to me, and I will support either as law
 
Last edited:
In the case of all this, the patients who are said to be helped would have as much right as anyone else (woman or not), and that could potentially include any of us. Even people who are healthy at a younger age, we don't know what will happen latter on in our life. My mother didn't develop Mania Stema Gravis (sp?) until she was in her 50s. Diseases like Huntegens don't strike until later in life, same with alzheimers...

I never was a fan of Machiavelli or his philosophies tbh, and the ends justifying the means, or "but so what, many more will be saved" just doesn't sit well with me. And I know full well, given some of my families medical history, I could be speaking of myself as well. My father has heart problems (his triple bypass, one of the bypasses closed up last summer/fall, they operated to extend that, but he's still got a weak heart. Weak enough that sufficient blood isn't getting to his brain, and it's resulting in a bit of forgetfullness...though he's still functional (just forgets a lot)... Though of the cervix or other sex organs, both my mother and sister got cancer...

All said, and all I can say, if a doctor were to tell me they could save my life, by taking that of all these fetuses, I don't think in good conscience I could do it. There's more then whether one stays alive to consider also, there's also facing one's self/could one live with their decision?

As to the matter of the fetuses themselves, as one who does believe in reincarnation, my take would differ from some's in a coupla ways...

- It's denying life/incarnation to one. It's not so much the body that I see as important, as the one trying to embody in it... But the body is needed, and does serve a purpose to the individual...

- Such denial of life is denying them the possibility to continue to grow/evolve as an individual, face/overcome the karma of one's past (as well as effect others who might make it in, who have karma with them)...

- Such denial, the karma could well be that when it's one's turn to return to Earth, the opportunuty will be denied to the one who denied it to another...

- There is another opportunity for the person to return, so it isn't a permanent denial of life...

In any case, I have heard from some women who have had abortions in the past (and my mother had one forced upon her by my maternal grandmother, when she was raped and all her parents saw was the potential shame that could be brought upon the family should anyone know...) The description was that it was like a part of them was killed that day, and a part of their soul/humanity/whatever died in the process...
 
Sazar said:
Life is being destroyed here in anycase.

I see no outcry over the destruction of embryo's in fertility clinics. Further the conception in this case is "un-natural".

If one can consider embryo's to be life created in a petri dish then why not an argument over the destruction of all the embryo's that are thrown away? Why the outcry over the use of the same embryo's for something to SAVE LIFE?

We are talking about a viable, already living person's life being saved.

The PR in this case is with regards to the surrounding circumstances. Life at conception is a brilliant idea but it is not viable nor self-sustaining which is why I do not personally subscribe to it. Further it is conception in natural circumstances, not a test-tube or petri dish or at least thats what I THOUGHT it was supposed to mean :)

While agreeing or at least condoning the creation of life in a lab and then disagreeing with the use of embryo's which were going to be destroyed anyways for research smacks to me of hypocrisy.

Please explain why those embryo's cannot be used for research?

I agree with you that they should be used. I'd rather see them used then just discarded. I find that more distasteful.
As far as life at conception. Why does it need to be self-sustaining in order to be alive? Doesn't the fact that it is growing prove that it's alive? And if you need to be self-sustaining to be alive, what about people on life support? Are they not human because they are on life support?
 
an embryo doesn't have to be self sustaining to be alive, but if it needs a host to go forward, who is anyone to force a women to be a host if she doesn't want to be?

if there is no host, it will die if it's not used for research...it's life can have meaning or be tossed away.
 
falconguard said:
you can debate it all you want, but ultimately do you have the right to impose your opinion on a woman? Where is the equal right, equal freedom outrage? to argue that you have the right over a womans reproductive process reduces that woman to nothing more than a reproducing factory, with ownership rights to whomever has claim.

I thought we did away with slavery and ownership of people? Is this not the USA?

And it could be asked what about the rights of the unborn child? Slavery was allowed because people with black skin weren't considered human. So it was all right to enslave them. You do not have the right to take another's life unless it is in self defense.
 
perris said:
an embryo doesn't have to be self sustaining to be alive, but if it needs a host to go forward, who is anyone to force a women to be a host if she doesn't want to be?

if there is no host, it will die if it's not used for research...it's life can have meaning or be tossed away.[/quote

What gives anyone the right to kill their child because they don't want them? And where do you draw the line? I've heard people say that if a woman has a failed partial birth abortion it's fine to kill the baby after it's out of the womb! Even though it is no longer in the woman. If a person becomes pregnant by willingly engaging in sex than they have a responsibility. That goes for the man as well as the woman. Too many people today don't want to take responsibility for their actions. You need to live up to the consequences of your actions.
 
On another note, what about cloning? Why is abortion ethical and cloning unethical? Abortion is legal because they say it is the woman's body and her choice. Well, it's your body your cloning. So why isn't it your choice?
 
Liam2198 said:
What gives anyone the right to kill their child because they don't want them?

what gives the child the right demand any person be an unwilling host?

if a person needs me to jump into shark infested waters or they will die, I am to make the decision if I want to put my life in peril or not...that's my decision, it's not the governments

you are not killing the child, what you are doing is you are not allowing the child take residence in an unwilling host


You need to live up to the consequences of your actions.

on this we agree
 
at what point life? If you look at life from a biological view the fetus starts off as one cell and then grows to more cells, mitosis. Look I support a woman's right to choose, I don't believe it should be a form of birth control. By not giving a woman a say in her birth, usually condemns her to a cycle of poverty, granted that their are those that rise above it, but these are rare. If the man was involved, then he should also be party to the after affects, but let's be honest here, the reason they are getting an abortion is because there is no man in there life. So instead of giving a girl or woman the right to decide when and how she can have a child, you are willing to condemn millions of children to single parenthood and poverty, so you can see their children grow up with no parental involvement, turn to a life of crime and then execute those kids on the grounds that they broke the law?
Kind of like the Catholic church, by not addressing the need of Prophylactics they are condemning impoverished nations to starvation, and disease...as long as they have saved their immortal soul. What price life?
 
I am ok with abortions happening within the first trimester. After that, you have to have the baby.
 
I'm NOT ok with using abortion as birth controll,

I also agree that there needs to be a timeline when crossed a women gives up some of her rights as an individual.

however, if a women finds out and makes the decision immediately, you can't force her to be an unwilling host
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest profile posts

Also Hi EP and people. I found this place again while looking through a oooollllllldddd backup. I have filled over 10TB and was looking at my collection of antiques. Any bids on the 500Mhz Win 95 fix?
Any of the SP crew still out there?
Xie wrote on Electronic Punk's profile.
Impressed you have kept this alive this long EP! So many sites have come and gone. :(

Just did some crude math and I apparently joined almost 18yrs ago, how is that possible???
hello peeps... is been some time since i last came here.
Electronic Punk wrote on Sazar's profile.
Rest in peace my friend, been trying to find you and finally did in the worst way imaginable.

Forum statistics

Threads
62,015
Messages
673,494
Members
5,621
Latest member
naeemsafi
Back