Presidential Debate Discussion

well for me being a libertarian I don't know the conservative view but from the outside...

after 9/11 nothing was negative cause that was what america needed. we all were attacked that day and that was how the country was going to be even if there was a liberal in office...no negative was going to be brought up about anything this country would do

also I watch every news station and I have seen nothing but an onslaught of anti bush administration news coverage, especially with the sensationalist propaganda piece known as the factless Fahrenheit 9-11
 
Tuffgong4 said:
well for me being a libertarian I don't know the conservative view but from the outside...

after 9/11 nothing was negative cause that was what america needed. we all were attacked that day and that was how the country was going to be even if there was a liberal in office...no negative was going to be brought up about anything this country would do

also I watch every news station and I have seen nothing but an onslaught of anti bush administration news coverage, especially with the sensationalist propaganda piece known as the factless Fahrenheit 9-11

every form of government that has ceded greater power to a figure in authority in a time of crisis has invariably brought the advent of negative laws, and various measures being passes in the name of national security...

remember rome?

the same happened post 9/11 when a bunch of bills were passed w/o opposition for the most part just because it was supposedly the right thing to do... and generally in great silence...

ashcroft touted the arrest of approx 500 people post 9/11 as a round up of terrorists according to him... a few days ago the only person who was convicted so far was released because the governments star witness had lied and it was proven the man had been falsely charged...

no one else has even been convicted...

have we heard about the non-convictions? have we heard any coverage about the portions of the patriot act that apparently have been repealled because the law-makers did not realise they were signing them into law and when they reviewed it they thought it was over-stepping?

we don't hear these things...

wrt bush... he got praise for his handling of america post 9/11... he got support and sympathy from the world when he stood up in new york and made his speech...

his attack of afghanistan was looked upon with reservation but many countries stepped forward to help...

his invasion of iraq on the other hand given the information @ the time alienated a lot of people and the situation post war is what has caused a lot of the negative talks... plus the economy was not doing so well and teh job situation is as bad as it has been the last 2-3 years for many simply because of the type of jobs being transported over-seas and the new jobs available that not many can fill...

the negative comments about bush are not w/o merit... he had a purple patch where he could have done anything he wanted...

he invaded iraq and the consequences have been nothing like what he promised... the invasion has been nothing like we were promised... afghanistan which should have continued to be a primary focus is barely a blip... consider the fan-fare for allawi on his visit v/s karzai's visit... what does that tell you about the situation?

i am a pragmatist... and i believe in consequences... bad leadership deserves to be replaced... bush as I have said many times, has shown me absolutely nothing by reason of why he should be elected...

had he done so i would have voted for him w/o a qualm... I am not voting for kerry even though he is the most likely person to challenge bush for the office that bush does not deserve...

I am instead voting (via write-in) for the man I would like to run america and lead us for the next 4 years... mcCain...
 
I wonder what ever did happened to Kerry's war medals? they were thrown somewhere? oh no that was the ribbons? oh wait he didn't have time to get the medals so only the ribbons were thrown, oh wait back on Nov. 6, 1971 I said something oh wait no I didn't, hmm I wonder if the sporting goods store can make some imitation vietnam medals? I mean ribbons, no wait ah forget it...
 
well sazar I agree with McCain...hell I would have voted for Kerry if McCain would have been stupid enough to be his running mate. Go McCain!
 
Tuffgong4 said:
I wonder what ever did happened to Kerry's war medals? they were thrown somewhere? oh no that was the ribbons? oh wait he didn't have time to get the medals so only the ribbons were thrown, oh wait back on Nov. 6, 1971 I said something oh wait no I didn't, hmm I wonder if the sporting goods store can make some imitation vietnam medals? I mean ribbons, no wait ah forget it...

yah... his explanation of that was far from articulate...

regardless his point stood and what he did has been explained often enough..

vietnam was not a war we should have been involved in and it was not something our men should have been forced to participate and die in...

I have a tremendous amount of respect for our lads and a lot of loathing for our government because of their ridiculous treatment of our troops post vietnam...

my wife's uncle still has not received any form of veterans benefits... he won a purple heart during the tet offensive for wounds received during battle...
 
Sazar said:
I just wanted to point out a little something...

kerry and the rest of the senators and the like did not vote to go to war...

president bush of the united states of america asked for the authority to use force as a last resort in order to negotiate better..

next time anyone makes a comment about "but kerry voted for the war" please do refer back to this comment from president george bush himself...

what a very excellant point this is sazaar, and it stands on it's own against anyone that thinks people actually approved this little war of personal obsessin which Bush has prosecuted

add this to the FACT that kerry and the senators were NOT given the vital documentation Bush is obliged by law and office to present, documentation that informed this president that his case for war in Iraq were exagerations and missrepresentations, and informed him before he took us to war in Iraq
 
j79zlr said:
are you kidding, the media has done everything, including lie, to impeach bush's character.
absurd...there has NEVER been a president who's image has been more protected by the media then this president...never
 
j79zlr said:
I have three cousins in Iraq, they have been a part of alot of this, and they have said 99% of the people are beyond happy for what we've done, have you seen that on the news?
rubbish...on both points

possibly 99% of the people your cousins happen to associate with, but NOT 99% of the people of Iraq

I also have relatives in Iraq, the Iraqis despise the ground we walk, everything we do and everything we've done is spit on...Bush's picture is drawn with a hitler mustach, and he is reviled even more then that head of state

the world reviles the current president of the United States of America more then any other president in her history...seen this on the news have you?

now to answer the question you pose at the end of your post, (have we seen your point in the news?), YES, of course...the American media tries it's level best to tell us that Iraqi's are pleased with us and what we've done

this wealthy owned media are clearly pro bush and anti kerry, it's frightening
 
if u missed it u can download it on bittorrent, if ep gives me approval i can post the torrent file here, btw were ganna probably watch it in american government class after i finsih downloading it!
 
Sazar said:
I find it hard to swallow when some people say "bush didn't dodge any service" because that is blatantly wrong... his own released records show he did not do his duty to its fullest... but he was honorably discharged and thats that...

Not exactly Sazar, I have to set the record straight on this one:

News coverage of the president’s years in the Guard has tended to focus on one brief portion of that time — to the exclusion of virtually everything else. So just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did:

The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.

Not two years of weekends. Two years.

After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.

According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).

Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?

That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).

Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.

“In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”

So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.

Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.

In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.

Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.
 
perris said:
rubbish...on both points

possibly 99% of the people your cousins happen to associate with, but NOT 99% of the people of Iraq

I also have relatives in Iraq, the Iraqis despise the ground we walk, everything we do and everything we've done is spit on...Bush's picture is drawn with a hitler mustach, and he is reviled even more then that head of state

the world reviles the current president of the United States of America more then any other president in her history...seen this on the news have you?

Really?? Here's some contradiction right from the Iraqi's own mouths...per a recent WSJ article....

The BBC offers this vox populi from Iraqi women. While the concern about security is a common thread, another one is a strong streak of optimism. Says Essraa, an 18-year old student: "The most important development to come out of the war was freedom. We were denied it, especially freedom of thought. This to me is very important. Another important consequence was our ability now to access modern means of communications, such satellite and computers. Satellite television was banned under the previous regime because Saddam wanted to keep Iraq isolated from the rest of the world so he could have total control over Iraqis. Computers were available before the war, but the prices were prohibitive. Now, thanks to our ability to access the internet, we are able to contact our relatives abroad and to talk to them without fearing the eavesdropping of the 'mukhabarat' (the previous regime's secret intelligence service)."

Samira, a 31-year old engineer, adds: "In my view the impact of the recent war, despite its many negative sides, was less severe than that of earlier ones. I think the negative aspects that have come to the surface were not caused by the war as such or by the American occupation alone. Rather, these things happened because of the change of the governing regime. A fall of a regime is not a small matter. "

Fawzia, a 36-year old teacher, says: "On the positive side, we saw an increase in our incomes. Teachers, too, have enjoyed a rise in their salaries, with the result that the practice of private tutoring is on the decline. Teachers now do want to teach and look after their pupils. Among other positive developments have been the refurbishment of school buildings, the printing of new school textbooks and the provision of free stationary to pupils. The cost of food is lower now too and we are now free to say what we want to criticize without fear."

And this from Um Samir, a 51-year old housewife: "The last war was not as big a catastrophe for our people and for my family as the Kuwait war, which brought us much pain. And despite the fact that electricity is in short supply and that there is fear because of the security situation, our material situation has improved a lot."

In a similar vein, Ahood Aabass, 42, who became one of Iraq's first elected officials and the first woman elected to the new governing council in Basra, and who is now visiting the United States together with Tamara Sarafa Quinn, director of the Women's Alliance for a Democratic Iraq, reminisces about Saddam's days:

Jer children went to schools that were without windows, doors and toilets, and where teachers made as little as $3 a month to teach. Water in her city of Basra had worms in it, and women had little, if any, right to freedom. . . .

Both women said great strides have been made in education, human rights, health care and infrastructure improvements. Iraq has seen schools reopened, refurbished and re-painted. Some 159,000 new desks were distributed to the schools, millions of new textbooks have been printed and 20 million Iraqi citizens now have clean water and sanitation amenities they didn't have before. Teachers are also now making between $300 and $500 a month to teach, which Quinn said is a great deal to the Iraqis.

Aabass and Quinn have this to say to the people of the United States:

We have very good things happening in Iraq because of help from America. I am very thankful and grateful for our liberty and our freedom because with (America's) help, we can get Saddam Hussein out of our country. I feel very sorry for the families who gave their sons and their daughters who were killed in our country. They are putting their lives on the line to help us.

Col. Gary Bunch, who commands the 172nd Corps Support Group from Broken Arrow, Okla., says: "The people are very glad that the regime is gone and are so thankful for the chance to have a democratic country and a decent living. . . . It's such a poor country for being so rich, nothing got down past the (former government)." Col. Bunch says that "media reports about the state of post-war Iraq don't accurately portray a hopeful public, one looking forward to elections in January, and the great work being done by American forces." In his words: "In the pictures we've seen it's just not the same as the work the soldiers are doing and the appreciation the Iraqi people have for it. . . . It's happening all over and that's the real story."


Read the whole story here: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005676
It's long, but quite informative...and quite contradictory to the usual pro-Kerry bias in the news.

Doesn't quite sound like despise to me.
 
The Patriot though your heart is in the right place, the BBC are full of ballcocks.

They write what they're told rather than what is correct.
 
my statements stand, the Iraqi's despsie the ground we walk...you doubt this?...very amusing

the world at large despises the current administration more then any other in her history...by a margin of 6 to one if you'd like the actual statistics
 
I'd like the statistics...I don't think you made that up perris I just want the info... that's all
 
I hear about the positive projects all the time... but I also hear about the insurgency and the sense of fear and the lack of security...

And its really funny that you say that because we here in Canada are not bombared by all the FEAR .. this is a little off topic but not really ( Over the last 10 years the crime rate has dropped on an average in most large US cities ) coverage of violence and crime has risen over 600%

No wonder huh.
 
Its true that Americains are not very well liked these day they are being seen in a light not very well liked, It is not easy to be liked by the world when you need to flex your army. We all know Bush is not perfect and maybe things did not work out 100% the way they would have liked, but Kerry is nothing more than just more of the same, either way, The way the world see Americains will not change as long as the US keep playing the role of Big Daddy , and that they need to do , if they dont then how would all of you people be acting today if , lets say no one took out SADMAN HUSSAN in IRAQ and there was 10,000 killed in a nerve gas attack in LA.? I know I miss-spelled his name :0P

See if the world did not have a DIG DADDY then we will see things like North Korea invade the South again , China will invade Taiwan , etc etc ... And the boys and girls that sign up in the armed forces know that one day they might need to fight and die.

Sad that they die. But people die everyday all over the world, no one can say Kerry did not say he wanted SADMAN gone? How would he have done it? NO ONE KNOWS cause he was not under the gun. All this makes me laugh you think Kerry will make it all go away? He is just another one of the same. In the end there is no easy way and Dont forget one thing , You cant please all the people all the time. And neither can Bush or Kerry , there is always the other side of the coin. Even if you sit here and post threads a mile long , like this one lol , it does not change a thing , because you none of you will ever take the job and do it. I dont like Bush I dont care for Kerry , from what I have seen over the 40 years I am alive, it just dont matter.

peace to one and all.
 
I'm glad you felt like posting kermit since you have a different view from us in America and can give us a sort of impartial look without american political party ties and not seeing all the stuff we see in the news media here in america...thanks again Kermit
 
Lee said:
The Patriot though your heart is in the right place, the BBC are full of ballcocks.

They write what they're told rather than what is correct.

Being in the states, I can't speak for or against what you claim Lee. I'll take your statement into consideration, but I don't think it is quite that cut and dry, just as perris claims the US media is pro-Bush biased.
 
kerry did sooo much better. he made Dubya look like a fool. but like others have said, you really can't tell whos gonna win because Dubya still has lots of supporters. a vote for a president isn't just determined by his debating abilities, its by its enforcement and policies he believes in.
 
Kermit_The_Frog said:
Its true that Americains are not very well liked these day they are being seen in a light not very well liked, It is not easy to be liked by the world when you need to flex your army. We all know Bush is not perfect and maybe things did not work out 100% the way they would have liked, but Kerry is nothing more than just more of the same, either way, The way the world see Americains will not change as long as the US keep playing the role of Big Daddy , and that they need to do , if they dont then how would all of you people be acting today if , lets say no one took out SADMAN HUSSAN in IRAQ and there was 10,000 killed in a nerve gas attack in LA.? I know I miss-spelled his name :0P

See if the world did not have a DIG DADDY then we will see things like North Korea invade the South again , China will invade Taiwan , etc etc ... And the boys and girls that sign up in the armed forces know that one day they might need to fight and die.

Sad that they die. But people die everyday all over the world, no one can say Kerry did not say he wanted SADMAN gone? How would he have done it? NO ONE KNOWS cause he was not under the gun. All this makes me laugh you think Kerry will make it all go away? He is just another one of the same. In the end there is no easy way and Dont forget one thing , You cant please all the people all the time. And neither can Bush or Kerry , there is always the other side of the coin. Even if you sit here and post threads a mile long , like this one lol , it does not change a thing , because you none of you will ever take the job and do it. I dont like Bush I dont care for Kerry , from what I have seen over the 40 years I am alive, it just dont matter.

peace to one and all.


Very good post. There's a saying that goes something like "Those who can't have a problem with those who can." or something to that effect. Different parts of the world have always had a problem with us, because of our strenth and resolve. You may be right about it not mattering much, but the image of Kerry being President is just too scary in my book.
 

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