[Politics Poll]Who will win?

[Son Goku]

yes... and I am free to suggest that karl rove is the mastermind behind the flip-flop analogies simply because that is the way he operates...

he questioned mcCain's mental capabilities and strengths while he ran for the republican nomination... his fingerprints were all over the insinuation that mcCain had fathered an illegitimate black child... its a classic case of hit hard with insinuations without ever having to deny anything and its his calling card...

kerry waffles... undoubtedly... bush waffles more so... and karl rove is the scum @ the bottom of the barrel on the lowest rungs of unscrupulous characters in america...

I've spoken about Karl Rove on several occassions, and of late saz has mentioned him. Perhaps a few things are worth mentioning, concerning just who Rove is, and what sorts of actions he's capable of.

No doubt at this point saz would be in a better position to find out about Karl Rove then I have been. Rove's main base of operations had been Texas, and what happened to the state of Texas in the time he worked there as a political operative. Rove has done some work in the state of New Mexico (where I have lived the past 7 years), as some have told me on occassion. saz now lives in Texas, and much of the record (as well as the consequences to his involvement in Texas politics) is there...

A few things worth noting, which show just how scumy Rove is (much of what I'm mentioning, was brought up in the book Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W Bush Presidential:

- During one of the elections, after Rove's candidate defeated the democratic contender, Rove continued to send unsolicited but very negative "job recommendations" to every firm the candidate tried to seek employment from. Beating her in the elections wasn't enough, he was intent on preventing her from finding employment in the private sector as well.

- Karl Rove's office had been bugged during one election, and it was at first treated as a major media event "Watergate all over again", and the contender to Rove's candidate implicated. However, a few twists were to emerge, when the story grew rather quite, though the damage was already done.

The FBI had their own investigation on the bugging and discovered a few things. Contradictory to the story the Democrats bugged Roves office several weeks ago, the FBI found that the battery only had enough juice to power the thing for a much shorter period of time and that out of the 6 volts potential in the battery, 5.6 volts still remained. It was their conclusion that the bug had only been activated for a couple hours at most. Either the bug had been put in that office that morning, or someone turned it on only that morning. Either way, it didn't seem the culprit cared if the bug listened in for very long...

Only way it could have been there for longer, is if there was someone on the inside who kept changing that short lived battery.

In the FBI's final conclusion, they concluded that either Karl Rove bugged his own office, else the security firm he hired to detect it installed the bug themselves. This is where the story grew quite, but not before the damage was done.

Oh, and one final note: Around this time Karl Rove raved about the movie Power and how great it was. He remembered all the minor details with equisite detail that highlights his iron clad memory for facts and figures. However, despite his practically photographic memory for every minor detail, coudln't seem to remember the main plot of the movie. ala a political bugging, and the consequences. Nonetheless, the main plot of the movie he couldn't remember, is the exact scenario that ironicly played out in his own office.

- He routinely called a particular agent "Greg Hampton (perhaps it was Rampton)" of the FBI to investigate opponents to his candidate. Oh and a neighbor (as I remember it was a neighbor of his) who asked him to remove a structure Rove built on his property, ended up in prison for a petty offence compared to the sorta stuff Rove has pulled. Not sure if that was the guy who ended up in prison with Rove's special touch, for something he didn't even know about, where the real culprits who were in the know weren't even brought in to testify.

There is more, but that's enough... There are reasons I described him as an utter amoralist. Even former friends (from high school, ala McCain's political advisor in the last election) aren't exempt from his vindictiveness; the result being he switched to being a political advisor in the Democratic party, because Rove purportedly made it quite clear the Republican party wasn't big enough for the both of them, after 25 years, and over no real wrong...

 

[ThePatriot]

Well Saz, looks like we couldn't be standing on 2 more opposite sides of the fence if we tried! It's refreshing to have an intelligent debate on the issue though. Seems like much of the time this kind of dialogue quickly turns nasty. I'm very glad there are still intelligent people who can argue a point without it degrading into a war of insults!

I just want to say one more thing...the war on terror is not being ignored, it's just being subdued by whats going on in Iraq. We have boots on the ground in many places fighting this war that you just don't hear about because it's not as sensational as the Iraq news.

Now don't go labelling me here! A very good source for information on our military is http://www.sofmag.com . It's not a "mercenary magazine", so don't even go there! I've subscribed to this publication since my early Military years, and it is a very good insight on Military matters. Very good articles recently on our troops fighting the terror war in Afghanistan, Africa and other parts of the world that you just never hear about on the nightly news. Maybe it will give some a different perspective, maybe not, but I think it will at least show things in a different light than most of you are used to.

Later!

 

[Sazar]

I don't generally listen to the nightly news (unless its fake news.. ie the daily show )

most of the news I gather I lookup on the cnn/bbc and yahoo and google news links... they usually have various tidbits of information about whats been happening in the world... thats where I first caught a whiff of the abu ghraib report and the rummy spin machine in action...

the war in iraq is a sore spot for me especially in light of the proclamations of "we will not rest till the perpetrators are dealt with" style comments... its been 3 years... bush failed...

 

[Grandmaster]

I found a good site that's trying to get through all the mud slinging and present the facts: http://factcheck.org/

 

[Maveric169]

I don't generally listen to the nightly news (unless its fake news.. ie the daily show )


the war in iraq is a sore spot for me especially in light of the proclamations of "we will not rest till the perpetrators are dealt with" style comments... its been 3 years... bush failed...

Well I am glad to hear that the war is a sore spot for you, it should be a sore spot for EVERYONE. And not just this war, ANY war!

But I am courious on your comment that "it has been 3 year....bush failed". Exactly how long should it take to find, hunt down, and bring justice to ...... what 1 million terrorists...500,000 terorists spread out over the enitre middle east. Many of whom attack and then run back home and pick up the day to day life of an ordinary peacefull citizen...... how long should that take?

And that is just the "perpetrators" that are in the middle east, what about all those spread throught europe, russia, even the US and Canada.

Take a look at gangs. How long have gangs been causing death and destruction? How long have the police had to remove this threat? 20...30 hell 40 years, with 10X the man power and resources, and it is still a serious problem.

Put into another point of perspective, if you were charged with finding 10 bank robbers in Tampa (not sure where you live actually, just going with your profile) how long would it take you to find them? Just 10.

Now I want you to think about if you were charged with finding 10 bank robbers in each of the 50 states, how long would it take? Now 100 bank robbers in each of the 50 states... as you can clearly see, it is not such an easy task as it appears, and you have the advantage of knowing what targets these people are going to strike.

 

[gonaads]

I'm from the school of "Conspiracy Theory". Most of everything that occurs with/within the Government has a hidden agenda. Now a while back, when Georgy Porgy's (George Dubya) popularity was quite low, what happened? Out of the blue, they get a tip and find Saddam Heussen. Gee, they couldn't find him for ever and all of a sudden boom, there he is. Oh yeah, someone tips them off to his location. Riiiiiiiite.

Now you watch, come a week before election time and they are going to get a tip as to Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts and get him to. Coincidence? I think not.

But that's just me. May may things in the history of this Nation of ours has been shady when it comes to the Government. But we all just look in another direction. Why? Because it didn't directly affect us. Prez Kennedy was assasinated, his brother also... and? Hmmmmmmm... Lincoln way before them... Hmmmmm... Pearl, the Japanese do a sneaky... riiiiiite. 9/11, the government throws the blame on the FBI for not following up on things, of botched intel. and breakdowns in communication. O.K. suuuuuuure. Now that has directly affected us soooooo, everyone is on the bandwagon to get out there and hunt down terrorists. The "Freedom Act"? Ooooooo, "Big Brother" is in da house now. "Big Brother has always been there, but now he can show his face and the citizens will embrace him. Our freedoms, so what if we loose a bunch of them. We want terrorists.

War on terrorists... there has been a war against terrorism forever and ever. There are home grown terrorists. Our own citizens for cryin out loud. The "Cold War" ended and the Government and all the NSA, CIA, Black Bag spies had nothin to do. No one to go after. No spying... how boring. The Military is not getting any Funding. The Military is gonna go broke! Oh My...

This Administration has created so many enimies now that the Government and the Government behind the Government (the one that truely runs this place) will be in a euphoric state for a very long time.

And we are gonna go and vote November 2nd for more of the same. We are a country of sheep. We see our freedoms and we take them for granted. Why? Because we were born into it. We never have been without them. Now with the "Freedom Act", we are starting to see them errode away, slowly but they are getting thin. Now many comment on Kerry's war record. He served in Vietnam. No-one that served in Nam wants to remember that hell hole of a clusterf*ck. It was this Nation's biggest screwup. We don't appreciate what those soldiers did, nor do we understand what they went through. And we sure as hell don't understand the hell they have gone through here at home. Why do you think so many are homeless, suicidal, mentally f*cked up and many hate them for serving our Nation in that War. Bush... National Guard. Ooooooh Kaaaaaay... But now the National Guard is over in Iraq.

My Father served in WWII, he was truely in hell. Leyte Island in the Philippines. Now that was hell. All that served were respected and admired for the sacrifices they undertook. They were treated as heros when they came home Stateside. Nam vets? Shiiiiit, they were lucky if no-one spat on them. Back then we had true enemies, we had true nation(s) of terror in the world. There are terrorist nations in the present also, don't get me wrong. But the situation in the Middle East is of the Western Governments own doing. Western Governments stuck their finger in the region and just f*cked it all up.

If we had left them alone, they either would have killed themselves off or fixed their shiit. But we will never know now will we. We stick our finger into everything on this planet thinking that we own it all. Bush declared war on terrorism. We have always been waring with terrorism. You need an act of Congress to declare war, not Bush. Oh no, he can do anything. The Geneva Convention gives "Prisoners of War" certain rights. All through history since it was established that has been so. The Prisoners at Guantánamo Bay didn't. Oh but they're terrorists. Hell the Nazis were worse and they were given these rights.

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

O.K. to much ranting...


But when you are faced with two (2) evils, I will always go with the lesser of the two (2).

This is my view. Anything said in attempt to change it, is futile. I have seen to much in my life to change my view of the World. The World sucks and I will die one day.. and that, will be that. You try to live as best you can. And if you ever have an opportunity to change it in a small way for the better, do it.

So go and vote... change the world.

 

[Maveric169]

Wow gonaads, I think your spending too much watching X-Files. Do you know the Lone Gunmen personally?

 

[gonaads]

I'm one of them

 

[ThePatriot]

In response to your post gonaads, I just feel I should make clear that I don't condone what went on in Abu Ghraib, I just understand how it could happen, from experience (or is that XP-erience? ).

I don't support the conspiracy theory as such, but I will tell you that yes, your Govt, and most others do LOTS of things behind your back that you are probably best off not knowing. They have to. And don't spend your life worrying about it, because it's been that way for ages, and it won't change. It's human nature to be the way we are. And it's the direction we are going right now. Your views are yours and mine are mine and thats what keeps everything balanced. You make good decisions based on the information you have and don't apologise for it. Thats what separates the men from the boys.

Oh, and the Geneva convention...if you look at history, you'll find that just about nobody follows it to the letter, but you'll also find that the free societies (US, UK, Canada, Austraila...etc) follow it more so than the oppressed ones. Everyone is guilty of violating it. Again...human nature. You can't stop it, you can't change it. We can only try to influence situations where it can be controlled and put in check.

o_87...good site, I'll have to read up more there.

Maveric...good post...and I agree, all wars suck. Biggest blemish on humanity, well, maybe the secong biggest, right after Windows Me.

 

[gonaads]

That's why when the "Cold War" was a part of our lives it was still a peaceful existence. As fake as that was. It wasn't in our face as everything is now. Humans tend to distrust everything anyway. So why should the Gov tell us anything to begin with. But now everything is being shoved into the spotlight and people are uneasy as to all this info they have to digest. I know things are not what they seem. And if I happen to see that hidden thing, I take note but I move on. No one else is gonna give a shiit anyway. It's like when people see things on the News. They say to themselves, "Awwww, poor people/victims, that is soooo sad." then they change the channel. It is not happening to them so that is as far as it goes. Now when it affects them, that's when they get all freaked out. Back in the 60's no one had a clue. But when Kennedy and Kruschev squared off 'bout Cuba then everyone took notice. It was in our face. So everyone got freaked out. But back then everything was done in the "back room". Now a days it's all in yer face high def color enhanced media crap.

I have yet to worry 'bout this world's course of distruction. Nothing will change in my lifetime anyway. Now if it blows up in my/our face(s) then, ooops, the party is over. No reset button on this ride.

World ends at 10... News at 11.

 

[Xie]

Nice post gonaads (#46).

 

[melon]

It has been said that America tends to vote on the basis of "image," rather than on the "issues." I would tend to agree with that statement, and part of the problem is that Bush does appear "stronger" in the media, while Kerry appears to be smarter, yet indecisive. Polls indicate that, in not so many words. Democrats regularly poll well in all issues, except when it comes to war issues. The GOP still has an image of "strength" that the Democrats haven't been able to create.

I'm not a fan of Bush, merely because I cannot stand the extremists that come along with him. As someone who believes in a strict separation of church and state as the only way to respect the rights of all the different religions in this nation (rather than seeing it as "taking God out of America"), I'm dismayed by the culture emanating out of the GOP. I simply do not agree with it, and I will put it at that. I will also say that I always make sure to vote in every election, even the primaries.

But this is my opinion. I certainly respect the rest of yours.

Melon

 

[Sazar]

Well I am glad to hear that the war is a sore spot for you, it should be a sore spot for EVERYONE. And not just this war, ANY war!

But I am courious on your comment that "it has been 3 year....bush failed". Exactly how long should it take to find, hunt down, and bring justice to ...... what 1 million terrorists...500,000 terorists spread out over the enitre middle east. Many of whom attack and then run back home and pick up the day to day life of an ordinary peacefull citizen...... how long should that take?

And that is just the "perpetrators" that are in the middle east, what about all those spread throught europe, russia, even the US and Canada.

Take a look at gangs. How long have gangs been causing death and destruction? How long have the police had to remove this threat? 20...30 hell 40 years, with 10X the man power and resources, and it is still a serious problem.

Put into another point of perspective, if you were charged with finding 10 bank robbers in Tampa (not sure where you live actually, just going with your profile) how long would it take you to find them? Just 10.

Now I want you to think about if you were charged with finding 10 bank robbers in each of the 50 states, how long would it take? Now 100 bank robbers in each of the 50 states... as you can clearly see, it is not such an easy task as it appears, and you have the advantage of knowing what targets these people are going to strike.

bush made a statement about security in america, he made a promise to bring al-qaeda to justice... he failed and then led the nation and much of its resources into iraq...

whatever analogies are presented the fact remains bush has failed in his obligations to the nations security, to the victims and familes of 9/11 and to everyone who has been sent to combat since...

september the 11, 2001 is being milked dry in the RNC and yet bush himself deviated from the path to bring the perpetrators to justice...

saddam != osama or al-qaeda...

how long it should take is a good question... had we actually been searching for osama and his aides as dilligently as we worked to invade iraq I am sure we would have more positive results...

it has been 3 years and bush has failed... and yet he stands tonite in madison square garden and proclaims that he is the man to lead the nation forward... even as he abuses the memories of the 9/11 victims and their families for his own political gain... the same families he denied the right to have the 9/11 commission convene on to get to the bottom of the matter till they went to the press...

europe and russia have dealt with terrorism and militant activity a lot longer than the united states has... as have many nations in asia and south america... even now there are hundreds of school children held hostage in russia and yet bush speaks of the victims of 9/11 and uses their imagery to try and get elected... not one word is said by him about the hostage crisis in russia...

bush will probably get re-elected no matter what anyone says... but he does not deserve the position... he has never earned the right to sit in the chair he occupies today and till he actually lives up to the promises he proclaimed to the american people and stops abusing the victims of 9/11 he will continue to held in low regard by me...

 

[Maveric169]

bush made a statement about security in america, he made a promise to bring al-qaeda to justice... he failed and then led the nation and much of its resources into iraq...

whatever analogies are presented the fact remains bush has failed in his obligations to the nations security, to the victims and familes of 9/11 and to everyone who has been sent to combat since...

september the 11, 2001 is being milked dry in the RNC and yet bush himself deviated from the path to bring the perpetrators to justice...

saddam != osama or al-qaeda...

how long it should take is a good question... had we actually been searching for osama and his aides as dilligently as we worked to invade iraq I am sure we would have more positive results...

it has been 3 years and bush has failed... and yet he stands tonite in madison square garden and proclaims that he is the man to lead the nation forward... even as he abuses the memories of the 9/11 victims and their families for his own political gain... the same families he denied the right to have the 9/11 commission convene on to get to the bottom of the matter till they went to the press...

europe and russia have dealt with terrorism and militant activity a lot longer than the united states has... as have many nations in asia and south america... even now there are hundreds of school children held hostage in russia and yet bush speaks of the victims of 9/11 and uses their imagery to try and get elected... not one word is said by him about the hostage crisis in russia...

bush will probably get re-elected no matter what anyone says... but he does not deserve the position... he has never earned the right to sit in the chair he occupies today and till he actually lives up to the promises he proclaimed to the american people and stops abusing the victims of 9/11 he will continue to held in low regard by me...

Hummm, if we are still capturing Al-quada terrorists, and that is still on going, taking into custody and eliminating them every day then how can it be a failure? If I gave you a long math problem, and a short time into it I simply said stop, you failed, yet you were still working the problem, how can I say you failed?

You unfortunalty failed to answer my question. Instead you just say that Bush failed, and avoided the question with a blanket statement. Let me guess, you don't now how long it should take, but Kerry will do it better than Bush....right! So what then, we elect Kerry for the war on terror, but if he don't get them all in 2 years (a year shorter than Bush to date) then we impeach him, cause he failed?

I feel your logic in this piticular area is flawed.

Again, Exactly how long should it take to find, hunt down, and bring justice to 1 million+ terrorists spread out over the enitre middle east. How long should that take to determine success or failure?

Reguarding Osama, it is 1 man in a country that will do anything to protect him and hide him. If I hit a golf ball into a corn field, how long will it take you to find it? Would you ever find it? Or maybe we should invade Afganistan, then Syria, and Turkey till we find him?

"bush will probably get re-elected no matter what anyone says... but he does not deserve the position... he has never earned the right to sit in the chair he occupies today "

Really, I did't know he stole the White House. Last I check he was elected.

 

[~bk]

I want Kerry to win but I know it's gonna be Bush in the end.

 

[Hsn]

I am Canadian! I vote for neither.

 

[GMeagle86]

This is just a side note, but it needs some addressing:

Most of you should be mature enough to stop the name calling....as far as I am concerned the two (major) candidates for president. They are George W. Bush and John Kerry. There is no need to call the candidates names, like it or not, they both were elected to their respective offices, and are currently leaders in the USA.

Granted, I have my own political views, but no one will ever catch me making fun of someone else's name. It just seems so immature. We all should be able to debate the issues with civility and respect to both candidates.

 

[gonaads]

Reguarding Osama, it is 1 man in a country that will do anything to protect him and hide him. If I hit a golf ball into a corn field, how long will it take you to find it? Would you ever find it? Or maybe we should invade Afganistan, then Syria, and Turkey till we find him?

"bush will probably get re-elected no matter what anyone says... but he does not deserve the position... he has never earned the right to sit in the chair he occupies today "

Really, I did't know he stole the White House. Last I check he was elected.

First, cut down the corn field and you find yer golf ball.

Second, Bush was NOT elected. After the whole Florida screwup and all the media attention on it, there was a full state recount. But he was already sworn in. The media never made a peep about it. No commentary, no sidenote, nothin. And guess what... Bush did not carry the state. Hmmmmmmm... look it up.

 

[melon]

First, cut down the corn field and you find yer golf ball.

Second, Bush was NOT elected. After the whole Florida screwup and all the media attention on it, there was a full state recount. But he was already sworn in. The media never made a peep about it. No commentary, no sidenote, nothin. And guess what... Bush did not carry the state. Hmmmmmmm... look it up.

I've read both Gore and Bush winning, depending on the media source doing the recount. The state, naturally, has washed its hands of it. Where it gets far more complicated, though, is how Florida had an abnormally high amount of votes for Reform Party candidate, Pat Buchanan. He was placed just below Al Gore, and, because of the layout of the "butterfly ballot," many of these voters thought they were voting for Gore. There is also Florida's messed up list of ineligible voters, and it was determined that many African Americans were mistakenly on that list, and, until just recently, that list was kept secret, and it was difficult to challenge their placement on it. With an election that close, you can see how Florida bungled the election and his brother, essentially, handed GW the election.

I also think it was highly inappropriate for the Supreme Court to have intervened on the election how it did. We do have constitutional mechanisms to deal with elections like this, and it should have been sent to the House of Representatives.

But whatever...now I just have to hope that Bush doesn't win (or steal) a second term.

Melon

 

[ThePatriot]

Hummm, if we are still capturing Al-quada terrorists, and that is still on going, taking into custody and eliminating them every day then how can it be a failure? If I gave you a long math problem, and a short time into it I simply said stop, you failed, yet you were still working the problem, how can I say you failed?

You unfortunalty failed to answer my question. Instead you just say that Bush failed, and avoided the question with a blanket statement. Let me guess, you don't now how long it should take, but Kerry will do it better than Bush....right! So what then, we elect Kerry for the war on terror, but if he don't get them all in 2 years (a year shorter than Bush to date) then we impeach him, cause he failed?

I feel your logic in this piticular area is flawed.

Again, Exactly how long should it take to find, hunt down, and bring justice to 1 million+ terrorists spread out over the enitre middle east. How long should that take to determine success or failure?

Reguarding Osama, it is 1 man in a country that will do anything to protect him and hide him. If I hit a golf ball into a corn field, how long will it take you to find it? Would you ever find it? Or maybe we should invade Afganistan, then Syria, and Turkey till we find him?

"bush will probably get re-elected no matter what anyone says... but he does not deserve the position... he has never earned the right to sit in the chair he occupies today "

Really, I did't know he stole the White House. Last I check he was elected.

Yes! Exactly! Because the 'mainstream media' thrives on sensationalism, most laymen don't see that we ARE succeeding in rounding up the terrorists on a daily basis. Most people also don't realise what conditions the military are facing looking for him. The golf ball in a corn field analogy is putting it in a good light. The real trouble with this fight is that there are no 'battlefilds' per se. This is the most 'unconventional' war we've fought yet, and people have a hard time understanding that there are no cut and dry battles, no front lines, no uniformed 'enemy'. We are making progress.