Pledge of Allegiance --- Petition
- Thread starter G-Money
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N
nevadamoonlight
Guest
Toric19 . . . Well said dude.
I was a RABID born again Christian for a number of years, then I was pretty much athiest for a few years. I think the key here realy is moderation. I think moderation in this case would be to take under God out of the Pledge and keep it strictly political. The pleadge realy is a political statement. And besides, we have plenty of professions of servitude to a monothiestic diety elsewhere, (on our money, in the Declaration of Independence).
I was a RABID born again Christian for a number of years, then I was pretty much athiest for a few years. I think the key here realy is moderation. I think moderation in this case would be to take under God out of the Pledge and keep it strictly political. The pleadge realy is a political statement. And besides, we have plenty of professions of servitude to a monothiestic diety elsewhere, (on our money, in the Declaration of Independence).
I just wanted to clarify something I said in my first post on this subject. The whole Pledge of Allegiance offends me, not just the "under God" part.
When you force a child to do something like recite the Pledge of Allegiance, how can you reconcile that with the part "With liberty and justice for all". What kind of liberty is that? I'm not raising my children to have blind faith into anything, be it religion, or their country, they are being raised to ask and wonder why things come about on their own, when you force students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at that point we become no better than any other country that forces propaganda down their children and citizens throats.
I love my country, I have served in it's military (USAF 6 years), I swore the same oath as any other person did when they joined. But, I didn't serve to force children to swear allegiance to anything.
If you want your children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, by all means have them recite it, in the comfort of your own home or place of worship. But please leave my children alone in school, I'm sending them there to learn. Not to recite some oath.
When you force a child to do something like recite the Pledge of Allegiance, how can you reconcile that with the part "With liberty and justice for all". What kind of liberty is that? I'm not raising my children to have blind faith into anything, be it religion, or their country, they are being raised to ask and wonder why things come about on their own, when you force students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at that point we become no better than any other country that forces propaganda down their children and citizens throats.
I love my country, I have served in it's military (USAF 6 years), I swore the same oath as any other person did when they joined. But, I didn't serve to force children to swear allegiance to anything.
If you want your children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, by all means have them recite it, in the comfort of your own home or place of worship. But please leave my children alone in school, I'm sending them there to learn. Not to recite some oath.
Z
zoloto
Guest
seperation
The clause in the constitution was never a "seperation of church and state" as it's so commonly mistaken. It means there will be no State sponsored religion. Remember europe about 200 years ago and how they forced it on EVERYONE? Yeah that's what they were insuring here, that it WOULDN'T happen as it did then. Just because there are religious people in government office doesn't mean we have to replace them with pagans/athiests/agnostics/jews/christians.
Simply tolerate what you don't like and quit being an ass if it doesn't matter. I can see if it were to be repressive but this is not that at all. Some athiest (yes i heard it on the radio) was over reactiing about his 2nd grade daughter saying it.
I just hate how parents use and manipulate their children and use them as a tool to get what they want with the state/Government.
The clause in the constitution was never a "seperation of church and state" as it's so commonly mistaken. It means there will be no State sponsored religion. Remember europe about 200 years ago and how they forced it on EVERYONE? Yeah that's what they were insuring here, that it WOULDN'T happen as it did then. Just because there are religious people in government office doesn't mean we have to replace them with pagans/athiests/agnostics/jews/christians.
Simply tolerate what you don't like and quit being an ass if it doesn't matter. I can see if it were to be repressive but this is not that at all. Some athiest (yes i heard it on the radio) was over reactiing about his 2nd grade daughter saying it.
I just hate how parents use and manipulate their children and use them as a tool to get what they want with the state/Government.
S
Sprung
Guest
2 things...multiple choice
1) Just where do you think we came from?
a) Primordial goo given life by lightening.
b) God.
2) If you get offended by "In God we trust" on your money, you can:
a) Say: 'well, I still need my money even though it says God, I can ignore it when it benefits me'.
b) Send all that evil money to me.
I will not single out anyone here, as I consider you all 'friends'. To each his own, I suppose; just leave MY 'own' alone.
As an aside: Fox news interviewed the guy behind all this. Near the end of the interview, the newsperson asked the man about what he was doing to protect his family from the inevitable extremists. I QUOTE THIS:
FOX: "Do you fear for the well being of your family now that your identity has been made public?"
MAN: "No, I have a security system."
FOX: "You do realize that in the past people in your position have been subject to death threats; what are you planning to do in that case?"
MAN: "We just hope and pray that nothing will happen to us."
FOX: "Pray?"
MAN: "Well...you know..." [laughs]
What I want to know is: Pray to whom?
1) Just where do you think we came from?
a) Primordial goo given life by lightening.
b) God.
2) If you get offended by "In God we trust" on your money, you can:
a) Say: 'well, I still need my money even though it says God, I can ignore it when it benefits me'.
b) Send all that evil money to me.
I will not single out anyone here, as I consider you all 'friends'. To each his own, I suppose; just leave MY 'own' alone.
As an aside: Fox news interviewed the guy behind all this. Near the end of the interview, the newsperson asked the man about what he was doing to protect his family from the inevitable extremists. I QUOTE THIS:
FOX: "Do you fear for the well being of your family now that your identity has been made public?"
MAN: "No, I have a security system."
FOX: "You do realize that in the past people in your position have been subject to death threats; what are you planning to do in that case?"
MAN: "We just hope and pray that nothing will happen to us."
FOX: "Pray?"
MAN: "Well...you know..." [laughs]
What I want to know is: Pray to whom?
- Joined
- 31 Mar 2002
- Messages
- 18,474
Re: A Bit Of Clarity..........
You know what's interesting is that Francis Bellamy was a Socialist.
My father served in WWII and he learned it the old way and always recited it that way. Before and after Congress and Eisenhower changed it. It would suit me just fine if they would put it back to the way it was before 1954.
What really pisses me off is these jerkoff Congressmen/women that scream foul at the thought of this. The majority of the old farts recited it the old way. Before the "under god" was added in. But none of them will express their true feelings about the matter for fear of being ridiculed.
Anyway, it's not a problem for me to forget 2 words.
You know what's interesting is that Francis Bellamy was a Socialist.
My father served in WWII and he learned it the old way and always recited it that way. Before and after Congress and Eisenhower changed it. It would suit me just fine if they would put it back to the way it was before 1954.
What really pisses me off is these jerkoff Congressmen/women that scream foul at the thought of this. The majority of the old farts recited it the old way. Before the "under god" was added in. But none of them will express their true feelings about the matter for fear of being ridiculed.
Anyway, it's not a problem for me to forget 2 words.
E
emmie-chan
Guest
I don't think I've recited the Pledge of Allegience since I was in... um... high school (like 5 years ago). It was so mundane then; I'm sure the excitement level hasn't increased since. Shoo, I think I stopped reciting it when I *started* high school. I mean, after, like, saying that pledge over and over and over again for so many years prior, I just got bored and tired of it. So... once in a while, I stood there and counted how many seconds my class took in order to say it. 
Ah... the joys of homeroom. How I miss them so.
Oh, so as to not to have totally strayed off topic ~ I never once gave thought to those two words, "under God." So since I didn't care then and I don't now... um... I think the media hype should be focused more on something I *do* care about... like... what a cool movie Lilo and Stitch is. WAAAAAAI. Oops. Strayed again.
I also had to force myself to remember the words to the pledge when this story first broke in the news.
Ah... the joys of homeroom. How I miss them so.Oh, so as to not to have totally strayed off topic ~ I never once gave thought to those two words, "under God." So since I didn't care then and I don't now... um... I think the media hype should be focused more on something I *do* care about... like... what a cool movie Lilo and Stitch is.
WAAAAAAI. Oops. Strayed again.I also had to force myself to remember the words to the pledge when this story first broke in the news.
C
Chief
Guest
First off, like many others here I have served my country with pride for over 24 years and am now retired. I too pledge this allegiance when I was in school. I'm not now, nor have ever been a very religious person, but don't discount the possibility of a higher power.
The Pledge of Allegiance in my mind is a tool, used by the government and the people of this great nation to encourage patriotism and to help people appreciate the life they are allowed to live. It is nothing more than that. As far as the two word "under God" having been inserted it really doesn't matter to me whether or not they are taken out. The reason they were put in is well known.
My main point is that I do not believe that these two words (which can be substituted if you're of a different religion), in my opinion, breach the separation of Church and State. To do that these words would have to empower one or the other to have the means to effect how the other governs itself. These words do not do that. They do not give the Church any power over how the government is run, nor do they give the government any power over how the Church is governed.
As for the word God, I believe it was used because at the time of the insertion, we (the USA) were a predominately English speaking nation and all of the religions that I'm aware of from English speaking nations all refer to a higher power as God. If we would have been a predominately Arabic speaking nation, for example, at the time of the insertion, then I'm sure that it probably would have been Alla that was inserted instead.
I would also like to state that I am not making these statements to start a flame war and tried to word it in such a fashion that I did not offend anyone. I simply wanted to state my opinion, for which I have given over half my life to protect the freedom to do so.
The Pledge of Allegiance in my mind is a tool, used by the government and the people of this great nation to encourage patriotism and to help people appreciate the life they are allowed to live. It is nothing more than that. As far as the two word "under God" having been inserted it really doesn't matter to me whether or not they are taken out. The reason they were put in is well known.
My main point is that I do not believe that these two words (which can be substituted if you're of a different religion), in my opinion, breach the separation of Church and State. To do that these words would have to empower one or the other to have the means to effect how the other governs itself. These words do not do that. They do not give the Church any power over how the government is run, nor do they give the government any power over how the Church is governed.
As for the word God, I believe it was used because at the time of the insertion, we (the USA) were a predominately English speaking nation and all of the religions that I'm aware of from English speaking nations all refer to a higher power as God. If we would have been a predominately Arabic speaking nation, for example, at the time of the insertion, then I'm sure that it probably would have been Alla that was inserted instead.
I would also like to state that I am not making these statements to start a flame war and tried to word it in such a fashion that I did not offend anyone. I simply wanted to state my opinion, for which I have given over half my life to protect the freedom to do so.
E
Eolis
Guest
Well said, Chief. Your service to this country is appreciated, BTW.....
C
Chief
Guest
No Lonman, I don't recall Kitzing, but these type of things were often called several different tags depending on where you were. Mostly it was just plain HAZING! Ah, the good old days.
Ah, the good old days.
F
forceusr
Guest
This country was founded by people who were escaping the British government's stance that all people were to worship according to the beliefs of the Church of England. They sought a place where they could worship as they believed. They didn't leave Britain to escape religion entirely, but to have a place where they could worship in whatever method they wanted. Freedom "of religion." Not freedom "from religion."
Once again, we're trampling on the beliefs of the majority so that we don't offend the minority. Political correctness... bah.
R
C
Chief
Guest
Sorry Lon. Yeah I need glasses. The nick doesn't ring a bell either. hehe.
I
ikester7579
Guest
Can someone tell me were seperation of church and state is in the constitution? I bet NO ONE CAN! Why? because it's not there!
Yep, thats right. I will wait to see if anyone has the answer to were it came from and who wrote it.
Anyone?
Yep, thats right. I will wait to see if anyone has the answer to were it came from and who wrote it.
Anyone?
G
Grinder714
Guest
Well said Chief, and THANK YOU for your service.
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