my tax returns, the effects {politics}

[melon]

People are lazy, people don't want to take care of themselves or think for themselves or be responsible for their lives. They want the government to think and invest for them (Social Security) and they want the government to make them healthy and safe (Healthcare).

I hope your retirement isn't hooked up to a company pension plan. All it takes is for the company to declare bankruptcy and have the pension plan scrapped by the courts for an inferior, government-run pension plan that pays less. The same goes for health insurance. Companies scrap them on a regular basis in bankruptcy court, and all you're left with is Medicare.

But you go right ahead believing that only "lazy" people get ****ed over. And hey...while we're at it, let's scrap unemployment benefits too. After all, only "lazy people" get laid off or downsized, right? And only "lazy people" get their tech jobs outsourced to India.

Melon

 

[fimchick]

We are NOT giving our money to rich people!

I'm sorry but if I invent the fork (let's say it hasn't been invented yet) and my company grows as does my bank account, then please forgive me but my ingenuity (or dumb luck) is none of your business or anyone elses. People who work hard for their money are earning it with their brains. Why is this such a *hard* thing for you to understand???

 

[fimchick]

I hope your retirement isn't hooked up to a company pension plan. All it takes is for the company to declare bankruptcy and have the pension plan scrapped by the courts for an inferior, government-run pension plan that pays less. The same goes for health insurance. Companies scrap them on a regular basis in bankruptcy court, and all you're left with is Medicare.

But you go right ahead believing that only "lazy" people get ****ed over. And hey...while we're at it, let's scrap unemployment benefits too. After all, only "lazy people" get laid off or downsized, right? And only "lazy people" get their tech jobs outsourced to India.

Melon

Aahh yes, see? The perfect example of extrapolating again and moving onto unemployment. You're not on welfare by any chance are you?

And to answer your question, yes I have a company retirement plan, but I also have investments that I set aside for retirement. Thanks

 

[fimchick]

this entire post is incorrect

people are not lazy, lazy people think that everyone that's not them are lazy...wealthy people who don't want to pay the bill they need to pay to live in America are lazy

the "black hole" you are talking about was non existant before we started giving our money to rich people

news flash;

give me my friggin money back...take it from the people you gave it to and put it back from where it was stolen and bing...no black hole

Perris, nobody owes you anything. You want money? Go out and earn it! If you can't earn as much as you want, then it sounds like your problem not anyone else's. It's the equivalent of a McDonald's employee standing on the street, stomping his feet and chanting "give me my money back! i want more money than minimum wage, dammit! i *deserve* more"

 

[melon]

I'm sorry but if I invent the fork (let's say it hasn't been invented yet) and my company grows as does my bank account, then please forgive me but my ingenuity (or dumb luck) is none of your business or anyone elses. People who work hard for their money are earning it with their brains. Why is this such a *hard* thing for you to understand???

So let's say your "fork company" is financially falling apart. By your logic, the fork company should then collapse and declare bankruptcy. Actually, I'm bound to agree with that logic.

However, instead of declaring bankruptcy, you decide that you want to shop your fork factory to a different state, and you start pandering to cities and local communities looking for the ones who will "bend" their own laws and give you tax credits/exemptions for x amount of years.

Or maybe you'll decide that hey...Malaysia makes a pretty good fork and they work for a few dollars a day. Then your tax advisor informs you that that's a great idea, because there's a federal tax credit for outsourcing labor to other nations.

Yes, folks, we're actually paying to send our jobs abroad. So don't tell me that rich people don't get free money. Maybe not individually, but their corporations are running nice and cozy right now.

Melon

 

[Perris Calderon]

We are NOT giving our money to rich people!

of course you are, but you want to make believe my money is yours so you can justify the theft...it's not your money it's mine

there is a bill to pay when you live in America...pay the bill and stop trying to take my money

 

[fimchick]

yeah, that's called the real world. if i want to do business elsewhere because it's fiscally safer for my company -- my choice!

that's the beauty of a free world, you do as you please and you do as it benefits you, not everyone else, because other people won't even spit in your direction when you're about to go out of business.

 

[melon]

Aahh yes, see? The perfect example of extrapolating again and moving onto unemployment. You're not on welfare by any chance are you?[/B]

Tell me. What's your definition of "welfare"? There's no government program under the name of "welfare," so please. Be specific.

And to answer your question, yes I have a company retirement plan, but I also have investments that I set aside for retirement. Thanks

Congratulations. That's a great idea, because you never know when the company retirement plan will get scrapped in court. In the mid-1980s, my father had to strike to get his company retirement plan converted to a private 401K. The company declared bankruptcy the next year, due to rampant executive embezzlement. But hey...his retirement money wasn't lost, at least.

Melon

 

[fimchick]

Yes, we need to be some serious changes in the current retirement system. We need companies to be responsible for their behaviors so we can avoid disasters like Enron. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, but we can't rely on just social security. All too many people do that, and they're going to get really hurt in the end.

I agree that companies need to be more responsible for shirking taxes and for working the system, but there will always be a way to circumvent laws and regulations in place. We just have to be careful not to go the way of a utopic vision.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

 

[Perris Calderon]

yeah, that's called the real world. if i want to do business elsewhere because it's fiscally safer for my company -- my choice!

that's the beauty of a free world, you do as you please and you do as it benefits you, not everyone else, because other people won't even spit in your direction when you're about to go out of business.

what a typcial lazy attitude...use the American economy to get where you want to go and then refuse to pay the rent that you need to pay to live in this great country

this is what's wrong with the current economic policy...this lazy attitude will be the downfall of our economy. (as is being demonstrated as we speak)

 

[fimchick]

LOL, I give up!

P.S. Sorry to hear about your dad Perris. Hope he feels better soon, I know it can be tough with family health. Peace

 

[melon]

Yes, we need to be some serious changes in the current retirement system. We need companies to be responsible for their behaviors so we can avoid disasters like Enron. There's a lot of work that needs to be done, but we can't rely on just social security. All too many people do that, and they're going to get really hurt in the end.

I agree that companies need to be more responsible for shirking taxes and for working the system, but there will always be a way to circumvent laws and regulations in place. We just have to be careful not to go the way of a utopic vision.

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.

But that's regulatory. That's "big government." I thought the whole purpose of supply-side economics was to let business run free? After all, only lazy and stupid people don't foresee their company running off with their retirement funds.

You will notice that, throughout this entire debate, I have never rejected capitalism in favor of communism. I hate communism, and I agree with anyone's perceptions that it is a failure. However, I am equally opposed to supply-side capitalism, because rampant deregulation leads to the abuses that we see.

The deregulation of the 1980s and 1990s has gone too far. Rather than bitching about your taxes, bitch about your wages. Up to 1986, corporations were punished with something like a 25% tax if they had what was deemed to be "excessive profits." You might roll your eyes on that, but the idea behind the tax was not to collect 25% of arbitarily-determined "excessive profits," but to force businesses to both invest in themselves and pay their labor equitable wages to avoid paying the tax completely. It worked. But after 1986, we have companies running themselves into fiscal irresponsibility and declaring bankruptcy multiple times after a stock panic or two, and wages have run stagnant ever since. After all, if you raise wages, it's "inflation." Actually, prior to 1982, the primary indicator of inflation was consumer prices. That's why Carter had hyperinflation: oil prices were consumer prices. Then Reagan had the definition changed, and all the numbers looked "rosy" again.

I'm all for personal responsibility. But I'm also for an equitable playing field, rather than one that is always geared towards fattening corporate profit margins, and punishing Americans for getting raises.

Melon

 

[Perris Calderon]

Perris, nobody owes you anything

correct

You want money? Go out and earn it!

I do

If you can't earn as much as you want, then it sounds like your problem not anyone else's.

I make plenty of money, my problem is when someone doesn't want to pay their rent...they would rather get lazy and not pay what they need to pay to live in America, then I have to take the slack

It's the equivalent of a McDonald's employee standing on the street, stomping his feet and chanting "give me my money back! i want more money than minimum wage, dammit! i *deserve* more"

nothing of the sort

this is the equivelant;

you want to live in the great house you pay the price to live there

America is the great place, this is a great country

you don't like the price of heat, don't heat the house

you don't become lazy and don't refuse to pay your bills

 

[LeeJend]

Back to the point of the thread. Perris you need to bitch about a problem before not after.

US health care is a giant scam supported at the point of big government guns. It is a monopoly. Monopolies can only exist at the point of a gun held in the hands of big government. To prevent government from being forced to break up the monopoly by outraged citizens concessions are made by all parties who create monopoly.

How to get free/affordable medical care in the US:

1) Medicine will be provided by the pharmaceutical companies free or damn near free to those who need it. Go to the company web sites and search for aide/help with paying for medicines, etc. No company wants to see 10,000 people in wheel chairs and on stretchers clustered around capital hill in protests so they make their poduct available to people in need.

2) Hospitals do not put patients out on the street until stable. Crawl into a hospital and they must stabilize you. Go to the city/county hospital, not a private one! The city/county hospitals have excellent doctors. I've used them. They also are required to take patients who do not have the money.

3) Never, under any circumstances pull out your checkbook. Negotiate, stall, hem and haw. "List price" is pure bull****. Only the people who are used to throwing money around pay it. Actual costs, even in a private hospital, are 1/5 of what they bill you up front. The longer you delay the better the price you get. Of the 150k I was billed for surgery/med's/hospital/home health care/durable medical appliances etc. About 30k was paid, the rest was "written off" by the doctors and hospitals.

4) Put your medical bills on a credit card. Make a few payments then tell them you can't handle the debt load, pay 20-50 per month. Your interest rate will be lowered substantially and your debt dropped substantially after negotiation. Banks write off billions in bad debt every year. They will settle for whatever they can get out of you because it's better than you declaring bankruptcy where they get nothing.

5) Same with paying the hospitals stall, then renegotiate.

6) Contacy ARP, veterans groups, red cross, any other charitable agency you can think of.

There are no work houses or debtor prisons in the US. They can't take your home or only car in most states. What are they going to do? Kill you and sell your body parts?

It's all a big scan. Throw away the check book and start negotiating!

The above are techniques discovered by myself and friends while fighting to get needed medical care. They work.

A few dont's:
-pull into the parking lot driving your lexus. borrow or rent a '67 Chevy with missing body parts.
-wear your best brooks bothers suit. wear clean, pressed, 5 year old faded and worn clothes into the medical facilities.
-let them know you have a cellphone, leave in the lexus parked a mile away.
-let them know you have affluent relatives, it sets off their greed sensors.

PS BTW my typing sucks because my left arm is strapped in an orthopedic chair I am paying a flat fee of $25 a day to rent for post op physical therapy. List price is 65 a day plus 90 for initial set up. Work the system.

 

[Liam2198]

correct

I do

I make plenty of money, my problem is when someone doesn't want to pay their rent...they would rather get lazy and not pay what they need to pay to live in America, then I have to take the slack

nothing of the sort

this is the equivelant;

you want to live in the great house you pay the price to live there

America is the great place, this is a great country

you don't like the price of heat, don't heat the house

you don't become lazy and don't refuse to pay your bills

You are both complaining about the same thing. Just one side is complaining about the rich that do this and the other side about the poor that do this. I don't care if you are rich or poor. If you get things for nothing you become lazy and complacent. This is a problem on both ends of the spectrum. And there are people on both sides that take advantage of the system. My wife is a teacher in an innercity school. The parents who are on welfare are the ones that think they deserve the most. This is not good for the country. You want the best you should work for it. No matter if you are rich or poor. Oh, I am also not bashing people on welfare. Only those who abuse it.

 

[Perris Calderon]

You are both complaining about the same thing. Just one side is complaining about the rich that do this and the other side about the poor that do this. I don't care if you are rich or poor. If you get things for nothing you become lazy and complacent. This is a problem on both ends of the spectrum. And there are people on both sides that take advantage of the system. My wife is a teacher in an innercity school. The parents who are on welfare are the ones that think they deserve the most. This is not good for the country. You want the best you should work for it. No matter if you are rich or poor. Oh, I am also not bashing people on welfare. Only those who abuse it.

I agree 100% accept you think it's the parents on welfare that are the biggest offenders and this is the biggest problem of people who feel a sense of entitement.

I think the wealthy people that don't want to pay the bills it takes to live in America are the ones that think they deserve a free ride the most and are a biiger afront to our economy.

both are bad seeds and a solution needs to be found

they want to forget that it's because of the midddle class and lower class that they are where they are in this society, and they think they would like to spend less then what they need to pay into the economic system that got them there