I was oppressed by an evil regime!

[Petros]

I was in military training in Georgia, living in a tile-floored dorm room for a whole summer. The air conditioning was out for the entire time I was there and rap music was constantly blared loudly by my roomates and people in the rooms around me.

If I told this to you and did not tell you that it was a military member describing what Americans had done to trainees in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Military Training Leaders in the treatment of their troops.

Spoiler

Sorry to be tricky I'm not normally like that...but TODAY I felt like it. I sure wasn't chained hand and foot, but that probably wouldn't have cooled me off much.

Illionois Senator Dick Durbin: On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ..... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

 

[Son Goku]

Minus the part mentioned in spoilers

I was in military training in Georgia, living in a stone-floored dorm room for a whole summer. The air conditioning was out for the entire time I was there and rap music was constantly blared loudly by my roomates and people in the rooms around me.

I would say it's something that could happen in a college dorm. Mind you, one year when we moved back from the SRCs to the dorm rooms, the A/C hadn't been turned on for about a week or so in mid-August. Mind you, Albuquerque, New Mexico gets hot, albeit not as hot as Pheonix, AZ...

Loud rap music is also common...

Reading the rest of your post, it's obvious you're talking about the base at Guatanimo (sp?) Bey... And yes I had read that account in the news sometime back...

 

[falconguard]

you are obviously forgetting the Israeli water torture, where they are hosed off then put in an air conditioned room...or the other end of the extreme, where the heater is turned up during the summer.


But, you are forgetting, no one held a pistol to your head to make you sign up for military service, this was indeed voluntary. I played football and they stuck us in the wrestling room, with the heater turned up during hell week, again a voluntary endeavour.

I think the point is that as enemy combatants, they have no rights as prisoners of war or other detainees, by denying them the fundeamental right of human existence, they are in essence persona non grata. the problem with this is how as a nation do we consider ourselves for human rights, but then deny these people theirs? that is the conundrum.

 

[Petros]

I think the point is that as enemy combatants, they have no rights as prisoners of war or other detainees, by denying them the fundeamental right of human existence, they are in essence persona non grata. the problem with this is how as a nation do we consider ourselves for human rights, but then deny these people theirs? that is the conundrum.

Air conditioning is not a funamental right of human existence.. They are well-fed, are bought taxpayer-funded Quarans and mesbah, are called to prayer five times a day over the loudspeakers with arrows pointing toward Mecca, and get air conditioning (well, sometimes not during questioning).

Is food and water a basic prisoner right? We provide it. Air conditioning is not a right if even free people not a hundred kilometers away live every day in Cuba without it.

How are we supposed to obtain information from them?

Guard: Hey, buddy, care to tell us anything about the people you were working for, any secrets or whatever?
Prisoner: Nope.
Guard: Well, ok. Back to your cell then, I guess; mealtime's in forty-five minutes.

We don't use extreme methods of torture. We don't use dangerous chemicals. We don't break legs or slice up a prisoners buddy in order to get him to talk. To remove their inhibitions legally, our only option is to make them uncomfortable.

The Geneva conventions prohibit severe pain and suffering, not minor inconveniences like taking away AC.

"For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Despite how you may feel, making a prisoner very uncomfortably hot is not severe. I (and any college student in the south who ever had their AC go out on a hot day) have experienced the same thing, and at higher temperatures. Quite uncomfortable, but not torturous.

 

[falconguard]

are these people allowed communication with relatives thorugh the International Red Cross? are they allowed inspections by outside monitors? UN? IRC? AI?

the administration, has scoffed at the thought of the RC doing an inspection, and even then scoffed at the conclusions they have drawn. By terminating the inspections, it makes them seem like they have something to hide. I believe a lot of the information, or misinformation is bull-hockey, but until they open up the prison for inspection by human right commisions, how do you know what really goes on in there? are you privy to the insides of Gitmo?

you can argue air-conditioning or food, but there has to be active interrogation of these people for information. How is that being done? and is it against policy to violate the Gen convention? So how exactly is it being done?

 

[Petros]

I found a link for you to some useful information about Guantanamo for you which should answer most (if not all) of your questions.

 

[falconguard]

thank you for the link, it goes a long way to explaining a lot of my questions. But, they still exist in a legal blackhole, not part of the Geneva conventions, and not part of the criminal court system, and since Gitmo is outside of the U.S, that means that interrogation does not have to be under Geneva conventions...so how do we know that extraction of information is not going on?

and on a side note...
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20050616

 

[Son Goku]

Well technically, an order given that's a violation of the Geneva convention is supposed to be an illegal order that one can get court martialed for. ALA, Abu Graib... It's not just in the states...

I must say though and to be quite honest, the account referenced here

On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.

wasn't one I enjoyed reading, and was not one that made me feel good, as an American myself...