George "Dubya" Accomplishments

[Grandmaster]

You know, it really pains me to see someone type what you did, Lee. Whether you like Bush/Blair or not, just the fact that you think ANY forces, American or British would fire munitions intentionally on civilians is ludacris. Yes, civilians sometimes get killed, it's the one thing that NO soldier I know wants to happen. To make it sound like they are being targeted intentionally insults anyone past or present that has been in the military. I wish I could make you believe that...I know I can't...but I assure you that NONE of the men and women I served with would be that uncaring, or would follow an order to do something like that.

Nothing is absolute when it comes to humans... there will always be some who think like that, but obviously they are in a very small minority. Think of Abu Ghraib...

 

[ThePatriot]

Well, I guess I kind of did make it sound like it never happens, it was not my intention. I just don't like to hear all soldiers being grouped into that fringe group that love war and conflict. The vast majority are not in that group. Yes, unfortunately, bad things do happen...Abu Ghraib, Mai Lai...etc...but is is far from the norm and it casts all those in Uniform in a bad light.

Dropping "The Bombs"...the "Linebacker" operations in Viet Nam..they were something awful that hopefully will never be repeated by anyone ever again, but were kind of out of the realm that I was trying to address. We haven't used those techniques in quite some time, as guided munitions have become more widely available. They were created to avoid civilian casualties...as much as possible, anyhow.

Lee, I know you're not the PC police , didn't mean to make you sound that way. I just wanted to address what you said...too many people thinking the US and UK are war-mongers.

I wont even go into my opionions on terrorism and the middle easts problems. Have we fueled terrorism? Maybe, in a roundabout way. We certainly didn't encourage it as some would like to believe. It is a long, complicated answer that I would need more server space just to lay out my opinions on.

I must say that you all (at OSNN) are the most respectful people I've come across in quite some time. Very commendable, and you all deserve a pat on the back!

 

[Grandmaster]

Thanks ThePatriot.

You could say the same for yourself

 

[Son Goku]

/me thinks one could make a funneh for all of Karl Rove's accomplishments...

Rove's involvement with Bush would only be some line items... Actually though, given Rove works more behind the scenes (rather then being the elected official himself), I don't see as much attention drawn on Rove, be it with with comic strips, jokes, or whatever else...

 

[Xie]

I wont even go into my opionions on terrorism and the middle easts problems. Have we fueled terrorism? Maybe, in a roundabout way. We certainly didn't encourage it as some would like to believe.

We only call it "terrorism" when they are no longer "on our side".

 

[ThePatriot]

We only call it "terrorism" when they are no longer "on our side".

Well, it could be said that you're either with us, or against us. Our past associations must be clearly black or white on this issue. No grey areas can be left. Either you support the terrorist machine or you don't. We certainly made some shady deals in the past, but sometimes you must deal with unsavory characters to try and affect an outcome. I don't think you'll be seeing those kinds of deals in the near future.

 

[Sazar]

Well, it could be said that you're either with us, or against us. Our past associations must be clearly black or white on this issue. No grey areas can be left. Either you support the terrorist machine or you don't. We certainly made some shady deals in the past, but sometimes you must deal with unsavory characters to try and affect an outcome. I don't think you'll be seeing those kinds of deals in the near future.

the problem with having an outlook such as this arises when you are dealing with nations such as iran... a conservative muslim nation now, it was one of the most liberal middle-eastern nations before we decided to implement regime change there...

look @ haiti... STILL having problems after almost a century...

our past assosciations are not discussed enough and thats a problem... most of the current generation disregard a lot of the facts about the past when making blanket statements like "we are the best and would never do anything like that"

yes... america is indeed the best (but I am a bit biased here ) but we HAVE done things in the past that affect us now...

a terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their affiliation... they operate in terror and there is no ifs/ands or buts about it...

if they are on our side that simply means they are not employing the tactics of terror v/s us... it does not mean they are not terrorists...

the claims of being the world's policemen has not come about solely because of our involvement in afghanistan and iraq... it is a reputation earned through years and years of regime changes and covert operations, assasinations and arms deals that shifted the balance in a region that we have engaged in...

in light of this I have a very hard time saying you are either with us or against us because what if we are wrong? we have made new enemies and burnt bridges because of a fool-hardy approach...

even if we are right we have people who have less faith in us...

in the world as it exists today we cannot go it alone... the make-up of our country makes it impossible for us to do so (economic burden... foreign ownership of our debt and mortgages and so on/so forth) regardless of what the politicians say...

 

[ThePatriot]

Well, I think I'll just quote Harry S. Truman, because it pretty much sums up my feelings on this:

"Carry the battle to them, don't let them bring it to you.
Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

We brought the battle there instead of it coming here...terrorists are falling over each other trying to get to Iraq to get a piece of the American GI's. Seems that strategy is working so far. And you can whimper about 1000 soldiers losing their lives but it's a war of attrition, and so far the number are in our favor. I don't take those lives lightly, mind you. They are all heroes in my book. They are all my comrades. We salute the same flag. They gave their most precious possesion for the love of their country and belief in what they were doing was right. Right for the US, right for the Iraqi people and right for the world. I salute each and every one of them and am proud to have worn the same uniform.

I respect each and every one of you and your views on this. I am not blind and I am not a sheep, if I thought this war was total bull$hit, I'd say it...but my opinion on this matter just can't be swayed at this time. Enough of our larger allies have concurred with us on this one. There's just too much going for this war than against in my opinion. And if the intelligence turns out to be flawed, well, it wasn't at the time, according to many sources...and we need not apologize for it.

 

[Perris Calderon]

Well, I think I'll just quote Harry S. Truman, because it pretty much sums up my feelings on this:

"Carry the battle to them, don't let them bring it to you.
Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

We brought the battle there instead of it coming here...terrorists are falling over each other trying to get to Iraq to get a piece of the American GI's. Seems that strategy is working so far. And you can whimper about 1000 soldiers losing their lives but it's a war of attrition, and so far the number are in our favor. I don't take those lives lightly, mind you. They are all heroes in my book. They are all my comrades. We salute the same flag. They gave their most precious possesion for the love of their country and belief in what they were doing was right. Right for the US, right for the Iraqi people and right for the world. I salute each and every one of them and am proud to have worn the same uniform.

I respect each and every one of you and your views on this. I am not blind and I am not a sheep, if I thought this war was total bull$hit, I'd say it...but my opinion on this matter just can't be swayed at this time. Enough of our larger allies have concurred with us on this one. There's just too much going for this war than against in my opinion. And if the intelligence turns out to be flawed, well, it wasn't at the time, according to many sources...and we need not apologize for it.

to me thepatriot, this war in Iraq has done nothing but galvanize the terrorists and the forces against us,,,our false claims and unprovoced war has maade us the target, and turned the world against us in a unified vile that we had never known before we made up the war...it hasn't slowed down in the least the terrorist movement, the war in Iraq has exacerbated the problem...this is also stated by Bush advisors, and is sworn tesitimony that he was informed of this as a result before the war

this by the way was a predicted result before the war, so this is not hindsight...this war was started with full knowledge of these results

 

[Sazar]

Well, I think I'll just quote Harry S. Truman, because it pretty much sums up my feelings on this:

"Carry the battle to them, don't let them bring it to you.
Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

We brought the battle there instead of it coming here...terrorists are falling over each other trying to get to Iraq to get a piece of the American GI's. Seems that strategy is working so far. And you can whimper about 1000 soldiers losing their lives but it's a war of attrition, and so far the number are in our favor. I don't take those lives lightly, mind you. They are all heroes in my book. They are all my comrades. We salute the same flag. They gave their most precious possesion for the love of their country and belief in what they were doing was right. Right for the US, right for the Iraqi people and right for the world. I salute each and every one of them and am proud to have worn the same uniform.

we have absolute solid proof that it is indeed outside influence that is leading to the majority of the attacks on the american soldiers in iraq and not indeed sunni and shi'ite elements local to iraq?

last I heard there were definitely foreign fighters but the problem is that a lot of the insurgency is rooted in iraq itself...

I respect each and every one of you and your views on this. I am not blind and I am not a sheep, if I thought this war was total bull$hit, I'd say it...but my opinion on this matter just can't be swayed at this time. Enough of our larger allies have concurred with us on this one. There's just too much going for this war than against in my opinion. And if the intelligence turns out to be flawed, well, it wasn't at the time, according to many sources...and we need not apologize for it.

the only larger ally that concurred with america was britain... actually the people again did not concur... IIRC the only nation where a majority of the people seem to approve of the war and generally still believe in quantities that saddam possesses wmd's in stockpiles that have been found is the USA... not even britain and australia's populace is behind these assertions IIRC...

heck the only other nation I can think of that does not openly protest the war is israel but they have a valid reason for potential worry from iraq...

as a person who does not condone the use of violence, it is very hard for me to sit here and say "yes... perhaps we were justified to invade and occupy iraq"

there is no reason that comes to mind with the circumstances as they existed at the time and the engagement in afghanistant the way it was at the time...

if this war president who wants to be the commander-in-chief for 4 more years could not finish a war he started in afghanistan and botched up post war efforts in iraq right after that while insurgency in afghanistan was climbing back up... what possible reason do people have to believe he will do any better in the next 4 years?

 

[ThePatriot]

to me thepatriot, this war in Iraq has done nothing but galvanize the terrorists and the forces against us,,,our false claims and unprovoced war has maade us the target, and turned the world against us in a unified vile that we had never known before we made up the war...it hasn't slowed down in the least the terrorist movement, the war in Iraq has exacerbated the problem...this is also stated by Bush advisors, and is sworn tesitimony that he was informed of this as a result before the war

this by the way was a predicted result before the war, so this is not hindsight...this war was started with full knowledge of these results

Yes, we all knew that would happen...but again, we brought it to them. We were sitting on our hands before Afghanistan and Iraq. And as far as the world being against us...if you believe what comes from AP maybe..but I see and hear on many occasions support from around the world.

the only larger ally that concurred with america was britain... actually the people again did not concur... IIRC the only nation where a majority of the people seem to approve of the war and generally still believe in quantities that saddam possesses wmd's in stockpiles that have been found is the USA... not even britain and australia's populace is behind these assertions IIRC...

heck the only other nation I can think of that does not openly protest the war is israel but they have a valid reason for potential worry from iraq...

as a person who does not condone the use of violence, it is very hard for me to sit here and say "yes... perhaps we were justified to invade and occupy iraq"

there is no reason that comes to mind with the circumstances as they existed at the time and the engagement in afghanistant the way it was at the time...

if this war president who wants to be the commander-in-chief for 4 more years could not finish a war he started in afghanistan and botched up post war efforts in iraq right after that while insurgency in afghanistan was climbing back up... what possible reason do people have to believe he will do any better in the next 4 years?

Again, yes there are protests, but there are also supporters. And, it sure looks now like Russia is going to jump on this bandwagon after their recent tragedy. Don't forget, they're the ones who warned us in the first place that Saddam was planning attacks on us. I would go out on a limb here and say that the only reason Russia postured itself against our actions initially is because Iraq and Russia at one time had a very serious relationship. I giggle when I hear the anti-war crowd say that we armed Iraq. Yes, we sold them some munitions at one time, with good reason. But, in case you're not up on military equipment, the VAST majority came from Mother Russia. Kind of a conflict of interest for them. And I will just leave the decision on the Russian made/French electronic equipped Mig-25's buried in the desert up to you all. Let me just say that these weapons platforms were not supposed to be sold to Iraq according to the UN sanctions imposed after the '91 war. The Austrailian Special Forces were tipped off to their location according to what I've heard...someone saw their tails sticking up out of the sand. Also found were Mig-29's and Sukhoi's...what else do you suppose is buried in the sand. We will just have to be patient and see. Well, I've gotten off track here. As far as your claim you are not a violent person, kudos. I realise none of you know me personally, but I assure you I am one of the most non-violent people you have ever met. I believe discussion is always the best way to solve a problem. But it is not the only way. Sometimes discussion fails. Twelve years of discussion with Saddam produced nothing but lies and deception, and the time for action vs. words was long overdue. I think the President deserves another 4 years because I like think his actions were justified. He called the hard plays and stuck with them. I think the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq will pay off, but not if we change our game plan.

 

[Perris Calderon]

too much to address point by point, though I did a nice job on the other political thread, so have a read...anyway, I'll address one of your points;

I think the President deserves another 4 years because I like think his actions were justified. He called the hard plays and stuck with them. I think the actions in Afghanistan and Iraq will pay off, but not if we change our game plan.

I'm surprised you can keep saying his actions were justified, even after you whole heartily admit the knowledge that this man circumvented this government, withheld viral documentation, voluntarily mounted a second front, though we are already engaged, sent our children off to die in a land unassociated with the attack we were currently defending against, and made up a war.

that it's easy for you to say the Iraq war was justified, even after you admit the foreknowledge that this war would exacerbated the terrorists call against us, and help their cause not ours, and put us in more harm then had we instead focused our efforts in Afghanistan.

it's beyond my logic thepatriot

tell me, and let's even use the hindsight as an excuse, though we both know all of these things were predicted before the war

do you in your wildest imagination think you, or any of the leaders you respect, would have made the same mililtary decisions as the genious in office?...the barrometer of leadership are the results of your decisions...I know a few in military position of high regard...to a man, not one think that the decisions of this president should ever be repeated...in adition, not one is happy with the results of those decisions...so tell me if you are among any man that I have as yet found that think the decisions of this president should be repeated

 

[ThePatriot]

I'm surprised you can keep saying his actions were justified, even after you whole heartily admit the knowledge that this man circumvented this government, withheld viral documentation, voluntarily mounted a second front, though we are already engaged, sent our children off to die in a land unassociated with the attack we were currently defending against, and made up a war.

I never admitted any of that. I simply said, like Bush, Blair and even Putin stated, that was the intelligence at the time, and if history proves it wrong It was legit intelligence then. See my reply to your other post for my reasons I think we are justified.

that it's easy for you to say the Iraq war was justified, even after you admit the foreknowledge that this war would exacerbated the terrorists call against us, and help their cause not ours, and put us in more harm then had we instead focused our efforts in Afghanistan.

it's beyond my logic thepatriot

tell me, and let's even use the hindsight as an excuse, though we both know all of these things were predicted before the war

do you in your wildest imagination think you, or any of the leaders you respect, would have made the same mililtary decisions as the genious in office?...

Yes and no. Same decision, bigger hammer.

the barrometer of leadership are the results of your decisions...I know a few in military position of high regard...to a man, not one think that the decisions of this president should ever be repeated...in adition, not one is happy with the results of those decisions...so tell me if you are among any man that I have as yet found that think the decisions of this president should be repeated

Yes and no again. I would have done it differently, in hindsight, but that is always 20/20. So would the President and everyone else, as you pointed out.

 

[Perris Calderon]

thepatriot, hindsight IS the measure of a president

as far as history proving the intelligence wrong, no need to wait, we already have the sworn testimony that this administration was informed before the war that his claims were incorrect