Farenheit 9-11 Airs for $9.95; Stolen Honor airs for free

[j79zlr]

American soldiers have invaded their homes, killed their families, and are taking their sh|t over?

I haven't seen any of this. This is exactly what Kerry said 30 years ago, and I would say that declaring our troops murderous villians isn't good for their character, now is it. I have 3 cousin's and 1 of my best friends who is an Airborne Ranger over in Iraq [one cousin in Egypt actually] and I don't think they would say that they had killed families. Nor do I believe that they have. I know they have killed men over there, but not families.

 

[Glass]

Just a couple months ago, 4 American soldiers in a humvee were driving down a desert road in Iraq, and out of nowhere opened fire on an unarmed Iraqi family in a car, killing the male driver. One of the American soldiers simply said "I thought he had a gun" and they drove away. The man's father watched his son, who was about to be married the next day die in his arms, and vowed to join the insurgency. It wasn't reported in American media, but I'll try to find a link to the story on the net.

That's just one story that I remember clearly. Independent agencies claim there are over 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq. The Pentagon conveniently "does not keep tallies on civilian casualties."

 

[Xie]

American soldiers have invaded their homes, killed their families, and are taking their sh|t over?

I haven't seen any of this. This is exactly what Kerry said 30 years ago, and I would say that declaring our troops murderous villians isn't good for their character, now is it. I have 3 cousin's and 1 of my best friends who is an Airborne Ranger over in Iraq [one cousin in Egypt actually] and I don't think they would say that they had killed families. Nor do I believe that they have. I know they have killed men over there, but not families.

Not straight out killing them .. but they have killed many accidently while fighting insurgants. Of course this will happen when the battle ground is in the middle of citys, none-the-less people that did not like us to begin with like us even less when they see a loved one die due to this war.

 

[j79zlr]

OK, that comment is fine, but it is the inflammatory statements like "killing families" implying a much greater evil that I think personally gives the troops a bad impression, and rightfully so. Kerry has said and tried everything, had the media, and all of the money in the world behind him, yet he seems to be in a bad position as of right now. I'm wearing a big smile.

 

[Glass]

I found a couple links regarding American soldiers killing civilians. Here are a few:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,748217,00.html
http://pages.zdnet.com/trimb/id69.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2082306.stm
http://www.sundayherald.com/42229
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/8734672.htm

There are countless more, in fact, there are stories pretty much everyday of Americans killing civvies, it's just a matter of going online and finding the stories, because you will never hear about it on your American TV broadcasts. So, being an American, j79zlr, you didn't see that videotape of the Iraqi wedding that was bombed by American soldiers, killing 20-45 innocent civilians, but now you know, and can no longer ignorantly proclaim that Americans are not killing civilians in Iraq.

EDIT: Oh, I found this one too:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1114150.htm

It's not about civilian casulaties, it's about Rumsfeld banning camera phones in Iraq. LoL I thought that was too funny. So next time they blow up a wedding there will not be the threat of WMDs (Weapons of Mass Documentation)

 

[Glass]

And to address the silly-ass AWOL crap...

Sounds like GW did a lot of training, not too much fighting. You may find the following article interesting;
----
Military records that could help establish President Bush's whereabouts during his disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard more than 30 years ago have been inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon.

It said the payroll records of "numerous service members," including former First Lt. Bush, had been ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. No back-up paper copies could be found, it added in notices dated June 25.

The destroyed records cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Mr. Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question.
----

Wow! What are the odds that the very documents GDuhbya wanted to share with all Americans in order to dispel rumors that he was AWOL during his TANG days just happened to be on a spool of fragile microfilm that some ratfinks at the Defense Finance and Accounting Service ruined. What terrible luck! And no one even told anyone about this, even as Shrubbie promised to release all his service records on national TV and clearly he wouldn't be able to, try mightily as he would. Damn. Now, everyone should just leave poor GDuhb alone on this subject as he is undoubtedly in mourning for his lost - lost forever with no surviving copies! - pay stubs. Probably a bunch of liberal commie types will want to make "dog ate my homework" jokes about this very tragic turn of events, just to score cheap political points. And here's the first;

The dog ate my homework. And my business records. And my abortionist's bills. And my military records. And my intelligence 'bout Al Queada and Saddam. And the records of the Energy Comission.
Poor dog. Got so sick we had to take 'em out and shoot 'em.

 

[ThePatriot]

So, Glass, what you're saying is American Troops run around laying waste to everything they see without regard for life or property and are allowed to do so??? Holy crap, I think you ARE Michael Moore! LOL!

Let me just defend myself and at least one other Soldier on this board.

I have never done ANY such thing. No man I have ever served with has done such a thing. We all follow rules of engagement. Do the rules get bent or broken by some? Absolutely. The VAST majority of the time the ugly term "collateral damage" applies. American Soldiers are NOT encouraged to do such a thing. On the contrary, we are CONSTANTLY reminded to minimize civilian casualties/damage. Many operations are scrubbed due to that fact. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you do something about it, go down to the corner and enlist so you can see firsthand. You say you despise Michael Moore, but you sound just like him! Don't pretend to know what goes on in the Military if you haven't been there. You have no idea.

Oh, and as far as your reply on Bush's service record. The numbers speak for themselves. You can argue all you want, but he honored his obligation. Period. I spent a few years in the Guard, and that is EXACTLY how it works. I put in extra time once to take a month off, so, does that mean I went AWOL in your eyes? It didn't to my CO. It didn't to the Dept of the Army. I have the Honorable Discharge hanging on my wall to prove it. So does President Bush.

 

[Petros]

Let me just defend myself and at least one other Soldier on this board.

I have never done ANY such thing. No man I have ever served with has done such a thing. We all follow rules of engagement. Do the rules get bent or broken by some? Absolutely. The VAST majority of the time the ugly term "collateral damage" applies. American Soldiers are NOT encouraged to do such a thing. On the contrary, we are CONSTANTLY reminded to minimize civilian casualties/damage. Many operations are scrubbed due to that fact. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you do something about it, go down to the corner and enlist so you can see firsthand. You say you despise Michael Moore, but you sound just like him! Don't pretend to know what goes on in the Military if you haven't been there. You have no idea.

<--- The other soldier.

Good words, ThePatriot. We do not pillage, plunder, and rape. We understand that America is a republic, not a democracy, and the laws govern what we do, not our passions. A republic is governed by law, but a democracy is goverened by the evil passions of imperfect human beings. We swore to support and defend the Constitution, the heart of that republic, and we succeed in doing so.

 

[loki]

Oh dear Unwonted, this makes me really sad:

We swore to support and defend the Constitution, the heart of that republic, and we succeed in doing so.

Wow, so much ignorance is veeeeery dangerous. What if your orders are not corresponding to your personal values? Do you go on blindly executing your orders for something that just 'isnt't right'? Anyway, this whole discussion should not be about soldiers, their duties, their comradship or Bush's & Kerry's record. You are not voting for a man who served 'the right way', you are voting for nothing and nobody else than for a guy who is to lead your country politically (read: not breeding even more terrorists), economically etc. The question is not: what can you do for the president, the question is: what can he do for you!

Btw I can't believe Bush 'won' again. This is an affront to intelligent life as a concept. This is a nightmare! How many wars is he going to start during the next 4 years? How many times will he lie to you again? How many more millions of dollars is he going to spend on warfare while innocent people are dying of hunger in your streets? This is so unf**king-believable....and very very sad.

Yep, I'm European and absolutely despise the ape you call president. Period. Just my opinion, if you don't like it, ignore it but ask yourself why people think like that.

 

[Glass]

So, Glass, what you're saying is American Troops run around laying waste to everything they see without regard for life or property and are allowed to do so?

I never said anything like that at all. I simply said civilians are killed regularly in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I don't need to drop out school and join the military to know that. I can go online and read thousands of news reports of civilian casualties from hundreds of international news sources. And for the record, Michael Moore is a capitalist scumbag. I just call it like it is.

Oh, and as far as your reply on Bush's service record. The numbers speak for themselves. You can argue all you want, but he honored his obligation. Period.

You could not be more wrong. The period of time in question was not after Bush requested and attained leave. It is in fact time that he claims to have been in active service but has consistently failed to produce any documentation whatsoever to support his claim.

 

[Petros]

Wow, so much ignorance is veeeeery dangerous.

I'll have you know that quote is from the oath that I took.

What if your orders are not corresponding to your personal values? Do you go on blindly executing your orders for something that just 'isnt't right'?

That's what liberals don't understand. We do not bend the law to our will when it doesn't agree with how we feel. Liberals have this overall feeling that because they do, we do, too. We adhere to the law to the best of our means. If we don't like it, we try to change it through due legal process, in Congress and the Senate, as it should be.

Look how they claimed in 2001 that John Ashcroft would abolish Roe v. Wade, and yet he has not made a single attempt at it. In fact, he responded in anger that someone should question his devotion to the law. He deserves an apology for that slander.

Like Ashcroft, if I am given a lawful order by the officers appointed over me, I will obey without question, even if I don't agree with it.

Yep, I'm European and absolutely despise the ape you call president. Period. Just my opinion, if you don't like it, ignore it but ask yourself why people think like that.

Is your press state-run? Ours is free. We don't have our opinions fed to us from a government nipple. We have liberal and conservative news organizations that give us both sides all the time. Despise him all you like, but the majority of the people who count (that's U.S. Citizens) want him to be their leader. We see more negative press about him than you ever will, it's just that the people in charge of state-run media don't run the positive stories as well. Thank God for the First Amendment of our remarkably perfect Constitution!

Start visiting American news sites like Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, and ABC if you want to get both sides of the story on how stuff works here.

 

[Glass]

Is your press state-run? Ours is free. We don't have our opinions fed to us from a government. We have liberal and conservative news organizations that give us both sides all the time

I couldn't help but laugh my ass off after reading that. There are no more than 6 conglomerates, whose board members all have ties to each other, the Bush Administration, and/or the federal reserve (Alan Greenspan) and FCC (Michael Powell, Colin Powell's son) that completely control every medium that is widely accessible to the American masses. Everything broadcasted on American television is one step worse than from a government. It's from a corporate . And as anyone familiar with American politics knows, corporations maintain a stranglehold on American government. The Bush Administration is just another corporation in disguise. Hell, America isn't even a country anymore. It's a business.

Thank God for the First Amendment of our remarkably perfect Constitution!

It's pretty wild that you like both George W. Bush and the Constitution, seeing as how he has been butchering it with extreme prejudice. I refer you to the big post I made on page one of this thread listing GW's major accomplishments, including 'signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.' If he gets his wish, he can add a gay marriage ban to the list as well. Then all he has to do is ban single, unwed mothers from being school teachers and he could be a Grand Dragon.

Despise him all you like, but the majority of the people who count (that's U.S. Citizens) want him to be their leader

[edit]portions of this post were edited for content - Sazar[/edit]

 

[Petros]

If he gets his wish, he can add a gay marriage ban to the list as well. Then all he has to do is ban single, unwed mothers from being school teachers, shoot a couple negros and he could be a Grand Dragon.

Our conglomerates are mostly owned by people with the same feelings you have.

I don't know where you get your info on executive orders. FDR is the undisputed king. Examine Bush's record and find that no order he issued has affected or circumvented the consitution.

Bush has not banned gay marriage. The people of the United States have, even in states with large homosexual populations. See how the citizens soundly passed laws defining marriage as "one man and one woman" in eleven states? And those laws have passed very soundly, I might add. It's an issue that crosses party lines.

And if Bush does not stop a single unwed mother from being a teacher, beats a black person, or welcomes any activity from the Ku Klux Klan, I hope you apologize for slandering him.

 

[vern]

Funny how the world criticizes us for involving ourselves in their business when just half a century ago, they were criticizing us for not caring. Funny how people criticize the military when their whole way of life exists solely because we do our jobs, Americans and the armed forces of many countries. Funny that people can run their mouth off when they are not paying the blood and the money but sitting on their nice cozy sofas and surfing the net for the next big thing against America. Funny people claim intelligence but are limited to generalizations and conspiracy theories of how America is run. Are they any different than the American idiots they generalize us to? Funny that many Europeans think they know better for America than Americans. Funny how hating America seems to have become a trend and many times not because they truely know what the issues are, but because it seems to be the popular thing to do. What I wonder now is, what would it be like if America did not meddle into anyone else's business? Who will be accountable when the next big disaster comes about?

Conviction, it turns out, is a luxury of those on the sidelines - A Beautiful Mind

 

[Electronic Punk]

(ok, just a note... please be careful not to flame each other. A good discussion is healthy but don't fan the flames at each other)

 

[loki]

Funny how the world criticizes us for involving ourselves in their business when just half a century ago, they were criticizing us for not caring.

Guess what? We ARE thankful for the amercican-brit-russian intervention here in Europe. Does that make you untouchable? How could it? 1) These were other guys 2) We'd have to bliindly follow and throw our brains out of the window....does it ring a bell?

Funny that many Europeans think they know better for America than Americans.

LOL, funny how many Americans think they kow better for Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam (sorry the list is to big to list them all up here) than the people who live there. Worse, we criticize through demonstrations or talks, you just bomb everything that doesn't comply to your ideology. Hell, I'm not saying that these countries don't need to be watched etc., but i don't bomb my neighbor (yugoslavian) next door if he des not blend in my culture, let alone adopt my politics.

Is your press state-run? Ours is free

So is ours mate

I'll have you know that quote is from the oath that I took.

Ok, i'll have to repeat myself: Wow, so much ignorance is veeeeery dangerous.

Oh about that liberals and stuff: Is the law there for you, or are you there for the law? Should you protect the law or should the law protect you? Just spend a few minutes thinking about it...

Start visiting American news sites like Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, NBC, and ABC if you want to get both sides of the story on how stuff works here.

Oh dear, read european newspapers from time to time too allright? I DO watch CNN and the rest (thank god satellite tv) and if you believe you get more negative press about bush than we....just come over for a visit for a few week, you'll be amazed. Sorry about that but CNN and the rest are soooooooo obviously under government control it makes me puke when i watch it. But i think you wouldn't notice deceit if it was sitting on your nose singing christmas carrols.

Thank God for the First Amendment of our remarkably perfect Constitution!

LOL, best joke ever!

 

[Evil Marge]

If anyone in the UK want's to watch Farenheit 9-11 it's gonna be broadcast on Channel 4 and could be around January

 

[ThePatriot]

Ok, I know the US is not perfect in many eyes, but just remember this, every time you hear of citizens protesting in Kosovo, Kabul, Krakow, Sarajevo, the Philippines, the Netherlands, in England, Berlin, Baghdad, France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovakia, Poland, Japan, Germany, South Korea and every other place on Earth where we have won, it is because we profess that every man, woman and child deserves freedom. It is ironic that in the one war we "lost" and the protesters "won", citizens are not free to protest . . . in Ho Chi Minh City. In the last 60 years we have given, or assisted in giving freedom to half the planet. Do we come across as a bit pretentious? Maybe, but look at what got us here. If not for the "World Police"...i.e. the US, Great Britan, Austrailia to name a few, what condition would the world be in right now? Don't tell me we're wrong for being the way we are...the world made us this way.

 

[X-Istence]

Bush is in office for 4 more years. This is gonna break the US.

 

[loki]

every time you hear of citizens protesting in Kosovo, Kabul, Krakow, Sarajevo, the Philippines, the Netherlands, in England, Berlin, Baghdad, France, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovakia, Poland, Japan, Germany, South Korea and every other place on Earth where we have won, it is because we profess that every man, woman and child deserves freedom.

Do you imply that these people are protesting against freedom? No i'm just kidding, nevermind But a very interesting question is this: what exactly is freedom? Go ahead and give us your definition. I don't want a historical reasoning here (like, you have freedom because we freed you), but just what you understand in the notion of freedom. Could be very interesting.
On the other hand, while you seem to be very proud that the US have given freedom and freedom of speech to many countries, why do you feel offended when someone uses exactly that right to criticise you and your ideologies? So as far as I understand, the US concept of freedom is: you can be as free as you want, as long as you comply with our ideologies. Or to put it in other words: everyone in this world is equal...but some are more equal than others. Or even differently: lead, follow of get out of the way.

I know the US isn't all that bad, mind. I love you guys for freeing our small country (luxembourg) from these damn Nazies half a century ago! We'd all be Nazies if you hadn't. However, you can't excuse everything you do now with that! Bush is a mistake, a risk, possibly the biggest threat to global peace...and i MEAN global, consdering the number of nukes he has to toy with.

Btw: Only yesterday, a german news-group asked a couple of thousand people just whether they think that the election system in the US is a farce. Guess what, 82% said yes. Can't give you a source, it was posted on teletext of pro7. Their homepage is www.pro7.de but you probably won't find it there.

Anyway, despite the fact that Bush was 're-elected', i just want to make it clear: I love americans! i owe them pretty much everything i have and the kind of freedom i am happy to have. The reason why i am so much against so many things posted here is just because I care and believe that you guys are fooled by the authorities. Singing the national anthem in school is a horrible thing to do for example. If that's not brainwashing, what else is then? I refer to the Hitlerjugend in Nazideutschland...it started exactly like that. I am just concerned.