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Geffy

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not really going to get very much involved in this, but I am still pissed at the Bush Administration for pulling the US out of the Kyoto Agreement
 

Xie

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Geffy said:
not really going to get very much involved in this, but I am still pissed at the Bush Administration for pulling the US out of the Kyoto Agreement
Yeah I agree .. bad move. We can spread "freedom" and then kill earth so we all die .. great!
 

Glass

sgàthan ìnnleachd
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vern said:
Funny how the world criticizes us for involving ourselves in their business when just half a century ago, they were criticizing us for not caring. Funny how people criticize the military when their whole way of life exists solely because we do our jobs, Americans and the armed forces of many countries.
So America is flying around in a superman cape rescuing all the poor souls and no one appreciates this. Right.

By the way, I am so sick of this talk of freedom. The level of arrogance, to assume you are so omnipotent you know exactly what is right for everyone, and then the audacity to invade by force on that assumption. If you take a country over by force, that is not liberation, that is domination. Plain and simple. I direct you to a couple blogsites written by people who live in Baghdad. Seriously, really read these, especially the second one. It starts at the bottom, then read upwards. Then come back here and tell me these people are being freed.

http://iraqwardiary.blogspot.com/
http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/

These people were perfectly happy before Americans invaded and blew up their home. They don't want what Americans call freedom or democracy. They didn't ask for what Americans call freedom or democracy. They hate what Americans call freedom or democracy. All the freedom talk is a lie, an excuse to pillage oil, exploit a very cheap labor force, and attain a presence in the Middle East, no doubt to support Israel and Saudi Arabia, two countries which can do no wrong in the eyes of American Administration.
 

Tuffgong4

The Donger Need Food!!!!
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where is Michael Moore anyway?

He worked for Nader in 2000, begged Nader not to run in 2004 and now he is no where to be found
 

melon

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Unwonted said:
Bush has not banned gay marriage. The people of the United States have, even in states with large homosexual populations. See how the citizens soundly passed laws defining marriage as "one man and one woman" in eleven states? And those laws have passed very soundly, I might add. It's an issue that crosses party lines.

I half-chuckle, because if we had put the rights of blacks up for a vote, they would still be second-class citizens. Amendments 14 and 15, giving blacks equality and black men the right to vote (women's suffrage didn't come until 1920), would not have been approved, had the U.S. not forced the former Confederate states to approve them, as a condition for readmission to the U.S., following the Civil War. Even then, it took those "activist judges" nearly 100 years to enforce these amendments, and, even then, took violent and destructive race riots to get white society to listen.

The rights of homosexuals should never have been up for a vote, because, frankly, the United States does not have a good track record with voluntary human rights. Despite all the bombastic nationalist rhetoric, we'll always be dragged kicking and screaming into expanding human rights.

But whatever. I guess, as Karl Rove says, a typical Democrat is "somebody with a doctorate ... people who imbibed the values of the sixties and seventies and stuck with them." Yeah, a typical Democrat is intelligent and stands for peace and human rights. I guess that means that the typical Republican is the diametric opposite; you can connect the dots yourself.

As some people have said, if you don't like it, then why don't you leave? Good question, and I've got a good answer. When I make enough money, I will be applying for permanent residency in Canada. President Bush's "booming economy" has left me unemployed anyway, so what is keeping me here? This nation is ****ed.

Melon
 

Xie

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Tuffgong4 said:
where is Michael Moore anyway?

He worked for Nader in 2000, begged Nader not to run in 2004 and now he is no where to be found
Whats it matter? I love how everyone (Bush supporters) are still like "take that michael moore". Forgive the man for trying to make America think. Forgive the man for getting people to vote. Why does it matter where he is now? This isn't a sporting event .. why do people treat it as one? Why do we need to throw it in the losers face?
 

Glass

sgàthan ìnnleachd
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101
melon said:
The rights of homosexuals should never have been up for a vote, because, frankly, the United States does not have a good track record with voluntary human rights. Despite all the bombastic nationalist rhetoric, we'll always be dragged kicking and screaming into expanding human rights.
Very well said. Just because a voting majority agrees with something, it doesn't mean it's right. When you're dealing with Americans in fact, it's more likely the exact opposite.
 

ThePatriot

-=[BOHICA!]=-
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loki said:
Do you imply that these people are protesting against freedom? No i'm just kidding, nevermind :) But a very interesting question is this: what exactly is freedom? Go ahead and give us your definition. I don't want a historical reasoning here (like, you have freedom because we freed you), but just what you understand in the notion of freedom. Could be very interesting.
On the other hand, while you seem to be very proud that the US have given freedom and freedom of speech to many countries, why do you feel offended when someone uses exactly that right to criticise you and your ideologies? So as far as I understand, the US concept of freedom is: you can be as free as you want, as long as you comply with our ideologies. Or to put it in other words: everyone in this world is equal...but some are more equal than others. Or even differently: lead, follow of get out of the way.
I think the definition of Freedom is way too long and complex to be put here, but my abbreviated version would be: The ability or the power to think, to say, to act the way one so chooses AND the willingness to do it within the structured moral environment we know as society. To be able to do as one pleases and to accept the responsibility and consequences for such power. I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. "Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way" is a quote attributed to Thomas Paine, but also happen to be my old Army Units motto, which is why I use it.

loki said:
I know the US isn't all that bad, mind. I love you guys for freeing our small country (luxembourg) from these damn Nazies half a century ago! We'd all be Nazies if you hadn't. However, you can't excuse everything you do now with that! Bush is a mistake, a risk, possibly the biggest threat to global peace...and i MEAN global, consdering the number of nukes he has to toy with.
I know most countries appreciate us, I know it's not a blanket excuse for everything. I respect your opinion and I'm simply using my Freedom to disagree with you. I don't look to start arguments, I do however crave intelligent conversation with intellingent people, which is why I frequent OSNN. Bush may be a mistake, but IMO not as big as Kerry. I really dont see nukes coming to play in this.

loki said:
Btw: Only yesterday, a german news-group asked a couple of thousand people just whether they think that the election system in the US is a farce. Guess what, 82% said yes. Can't give you a source, it was posted on teletext of pro7. Their homepage is www.pro7.de but you probably won't find it there.
I have my reservations about the system, but it worked correctly on Nov 2nd, at least the mechanics of it. Maybe everyones candidate didn't win, but the process went well regardless.

loki said:
Anyway, despite the fact that Bush was 're-elected', i just want to make it clear: I love americans! i owe them pretty much everything i have and the kind of freedom i am happy to have. The reason why i am so much against so many things posted here is just because I care and believe that you guys are fooled by the authorities. Singing the national anthem in school is a horrible thing to do for example. If that's not brainwashing, what else is then? I refer to the Hitlerjugend in Nazideutschland...it started exactly like that. I am just concerned.
I don't expect anyone to love Americans, just appreciate what we did and give us the benefit of the doubt that we will keep our checks and balances operating, and we as a people won't let the nation stray too far off the trail. Singing the national anthem in scool is a GREAT thing to do. It is not brainwashing, it is bringing focus to something that many people fought and died for and put us where we are today. It should NEVER be something to be subdued or forgotten. But again, the rules of society come into play. We must have the moral obligation to repeat those words, but not let them give us a false sense of having carte blance to step over the moral laws of society.
 

loki

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Joined
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I think the definition of Freedom is way too long and complex to be put here, but my abbreviated version would be: The ability or the power to think, to say, to act the way one so chooses AND the willingness to do it within the structured moral environment we know as society. To be able to do as one pleases and to accept the responsibility and consequences for such power.

Yep, true, 'freedom as a concept is very complex and difficult. In this way, ridding Iraq of Saddam was a good thing to do, but still, it was based on lies ('they are helping terrorists...) and treachery on your own people. Now that he is gone (oh, has anyone heard of him recently? What's going on with 'the world's biggest terrorist'?), from my point of view the american's mission in Iraq is over. You helped the people, thanks, now leave and let them manage. Oh, why not? Ah because then a new major force would rise and overthrow the newly established government while hating the US even more? Ah, so now you realize what you got yourself into... The problem is this: while you stay, you make people unhappy and force a whole country to change their ways as you see fit and when you leave, you'll have more bred potential terrorists because of what you did. Know why the time after WW2 went so 'well' for Europe? Because you freed us and left us enough freedom to get organized, then left. You remained in DDR, along with the Russians, which led to the Cold War. You see, the problem with your definition of freedom is that it's absolutely true, however, it does not nearly come close to what the US are doing down in Iraq and in Afghanistan. As for human rights...don't even get me started. Your 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'-motto is fine in a squad where everyone's life is at stake, but it's not enough as a political idea (if you didn't have that flag under it, i'd have no problem with it).

I really dont see nukes coming to play in this.

Hm, ok then, did you know that Bush actually funds a project in US-Army to develop mini-nukes? Yep, that's right, they want to build micro-versions of real nukes that have the same blast-power but lack the amount of radioactive fallout. Now that the world has finally begun to destroy the 30000 nukes that once were in existence, he funds a project like that.... And something else: at Bush's first 'election', did you dream you'd be soon at war with Afghanistan and Iraq? No? And now you don't think nukes would come into play sooner or later?
I don't come to OSNN to flame, despite whoever believes that. Just as you do, I come here for intelligent conversation. But sometimes it just gets me going :)

but the process went well regardless.

In reality, the process of counting is still not over. so much for it went well. Here in my country, we cannot choose to vote, we have to. they count 400.000 votes in less than 7 hours, and you can't tell me the US can't do it any quicker....

Singing the national anthem in scool is a GREAT thing to do. It is not brainwashing, it is bringing focus to something that many people fought and died for and put us where we are today.

No, it's a horrible thing. I know many americans have died for how the world is shaped now and that we shouldn't forget that. In Nazideutschland, this was sadly enough the exact same idea behind 'deutschland deutschland über alles' (Germany Germany above all). If you grow up your child telling him or her each day that bananas are blue and dangerous, it's going to believe that sooner or later, and whenever it sees one it'll think 'it's blue and dangerous'. See, the trouble with ideologies and nationalisms like these is that they get stuffed into people's brains and makes them unable to sees their faults. I know of not a single school in Europe where they sing a national anthem, even though many people of their country have died in wars. It's explicitly forbidden as far as i know. the big laugh about that is that we Europeans in general know a lot more of the world and it's history than you americans do. Oh i'm just telling you what i know. Whenever i meet an american and talk about politics and history with him/her, i can't believe how little he'she actually knows, and i'm not only talking about europe. The only history you know better than I do (usually), is the american one and that's it. America above all...does it ring a bell? Sad thing that the majority of the US population can't even point out Iraq on a map.

We must have the moral obligation to repeat those words
No society should impose moral obligations towards itself, period.

but not let them give us a false sense of having carte blance to step over the moral laws of society.
if you had left out 'of society' it'd be the first one to agree. What about common-sense?
 

ThePatriot

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loki said:
Yep, true, 'freedom as a concept is very complex and difficult. In this way, ridding Iraq of Saddam was a good thing to do, but still, it was based on lies ('they are helping terrorists...) and treachery on your own people. Now that he is gone (oh, has anyone heard of him recently? What's going on with 'the world's biggest terrorist'?), from my point of view the american's mission in Iraq is over. You helped the people, thanks, now leave and let them manage. Oh, why not? Ah because then a new major force would rise and overthrow the newly established government while hating the US even more? Ah, so now you realize what you got yourself into... The problem is this: while you stay, you make people unhappy and force a whole country to change their ways as you see fit and when you leave, you'll have more bred potential terrorists because of what you did. Know why the time after WW2 went so 'well' for Europe? Because you freed us and left us enough freedom to get organized, then left. You remained in DDR, along with the Russians, which led to the Cold War. You see, the problem with your definition of freedom is that it's absolutely true, however, it does not nearly come close to what the US are doing down in Iraq and in Afghanistan. As for human rights...don't even get me started. Your 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'-motto is fine in a squad where everyone's life is at stake, but it's not enough as a political idea (if you didn't have that flag under it, i'd have no problem with it).
Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe. I really dont want to get into that argument again, it is pointless now. We will leave when the country is stable enough to do so and not fall into anarchy. They will be free to choose whatever type of rule they wish, as long as it's not a threat to the region, as it was. That's the way we've always done it. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes it gets you. My motto applies to many non-military situations (put it in a business situation, for example). I'm really not concerned who has a problem with it. I fought under it, I live under it, I live by it, I'm American.



loki said:
Hm, ok then, did you know that Bush actually funds a project in US-Army to develop mini-nukes? Yep, that's right, they want to build micro-versions of real nukes that have the same blast-power but lack the amount of radioactive fallout. Now that the world has finally begun to destroy the 30000 nukes that once were in existence, he funds a project like that.... And something else: at Bush's first 'election', did you dream you'd be soon at war with Afghanistan and Iraq? No? And now you don't think nukes would come into play sooner or later?
I don't come to OSNN to flame, despite whoever believes that. Just as you do, I come here for intelligent conversation. But sometimes it just gets me going :)
Backpack nukes have been around since I was in the service(enlisted in the mid-80's). They're nothing new. No, I really don't think anyone is going to use nukes.



loki said:
In reality, the process of counting is still not over. so much for it went well. Here in my country, we cannot choose to vote, we have to. they count 400.000 votes in less than 7 hours, and you can't tell me the US can't do it any quicker....
Why "so much for it went well"? There are no major problems. Better than 115 million people voted this year. We use 5 or 6 different types of machines, some dating back decades. They're doing the best they can(have you looked at a US map lately?:eek:)



loki said:
No, it's a horrible thing. I know many americans have died for how the world is shaped now and that we shouldn't forget that. In Nazideutschland, this was sadly enough the exact same idea behind 'deutschland deutschland über alles' (Germany Germany above all). If you grow up your child telling him or her each day that bananas are blue and dangerous, it's going to believe that sooner or later, and whenever it sees one it'll think 'it's blue and dangerous'. See, the trouble with ideologies and nationalisms like these is that they get stuffed into people's brains and makes them unable to sees their faults. I know of not a single school in Europe where they sing a national anthem, even though many people of their country have died in wars. It's explicitly forbidden as far as i know. the big laugh about that is that we Europeans in general know a lot more of the world and it's history than you americans do. Oh i'm just telling you what i know. Whenever i meet an american and talk about politics and history with him/her, i can't believe how little he'she actually knows, and i'm not only talking about europe. The only history you know better than I do (usually), is the american one and that's it. America above all...does it ring a bell? Sad thing that the majority of the US population can't even point out Iraq on a map.
Well, simply put...that is "European Mentality" at work. That is why Great Britan distances herself from Europe, and that is why we repeatedly have to pull Europe's ass out of the fire time and time again. A National Anthem and brainwashing can be the same thing, but can also be two entirely seperate entities. I like to think America has, and will continue to believe the latter. Yes, there are plenty of Americans who dont know where Washington DC is, nevermind Iraq. No argument there.


loki said:
No society should impose moral obligations towards itself, period.
Wrong. Morals are imposed on us daily and for good reason. Most of the laws we abide by are based on moral values, and without them we would certainly degrade into one of the current "repressive" or "oppresive"
regimes we so despise and seek to end. One of our most important moral obligations as a free society is to guard and to propagate freedom.

loki said:
if you had left out 'of society' it'd be the first one to agree. What about common-sense?
Ok, common sense works too. :)
 

loki

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Ok, just gonna answer this post before i go to bed...it's 03:10 AM here :)

Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe.

No not really. Rumsfeld was sooo absolutely positive about Saddam having links to more terorists and only after the show they admitted they did not exactly know if there were links. Same for the weapons of massdestruction. Where the hell are they? Disinformation is also a weapon of mass destruction... Please, you guys told us you could read the text on a matchbox laying on a street from the orbit...and you can't make out nukes for sure? Get real...Oh, you hopefully do realise that if the US adopted and enforced a common religion, they would fall under their own definition of terrorist-country?

I really dont want to get into that argument again, it is pointless now.
Yep, I agree :)

We will leave when the country is stable enough to do so and not fall into anarchy. They will be free to choose whatever type of rule they wish, as long as it's not a threat to the region, as it was.
...based on whose opinion? Actually i believe (read that somewhere in both a french and german newspaper i think) there are more people getting killed in Iraq (excluding us troops) than there were before the US intervention...


That's the way we've always done it. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes it gets you.

Again, yes, its true what you say. I'm not kidding you when i tell you i love the Us for freeing (THAT was freeing) from the Nazis, but remember that you did not do it on your own. Apart from the brits and a few countries next to Iraq who want their share of the pie you are pretty much alone, and reduced the UN to an 'inferiour' level when you went to war without permission of the other nations. That's not exactly what Unities are for, you know?

My motto applies to many non-military situations (put it in a business situation, for example). I'm really not concerned who has a problem with it.

I couldn't agree more..in business situations. Oh but that wars seems to be just that...

I fought under it, I live under it, I live by it, I'm American.

...and you don't give a sh*t about what ideologies other people believe in, even if they believe them as strongly as you do right? Did you learn this by heart per chance? Sounds awfully like it....

Backpack nukes have been around since I was in the service(enlisted in the mid-80's). They're nothing new. No, I really don't think anyone is going to use nukes.

So why having them around? Even worse, if they are already some sort of standard equipment...are you insane????? Nukes? Hello? Someone home in these heads???

Why "so much for it went well"? There are no major problems. Better than 115 million people voted this year. We use 5 or 6 different types of machines, some dating back decades. They're doing the best they can(have you looked at a US map lately?:eek:)

hehe, yeah i know the US are pretty big :) Still, they can spend billions of dollars of taxpayer's money on warfare and still use stone-age machines? Oh and about these new electronic thingies...oh dear...

Well, simply put...that is "European Mentality" at work. That is why Great Britan distances herself from Europe, and that is why we repeatedly have to pull Europe's ass out of the fire time and time again.

Oh, besides WW2, when did you do that? Have i missed something??? The brits are special, just like the french...or the germans...or italians, the spanish, the greeks... jeez man, gb just happens to feel more aligned to the US sometimes than to Europe and that's it. When did it put them or us (=the rest) into trouble? They didn't accept the Euro as a new currency because they believed it wouldn't work. Right now it's rated higher than US-Dollars....ok, their pound-sterlings are even higher, but they always were. If I remember correctly, the US is the country whose economy produces more losses than income for decades. Actually, European economics is (if the trend persists, which is very likely) going to surpass the US's in a couple of years, while the average situation of living, health-insurance etc is way better here than it ever was over there at your place. Right now, the US would not meet the standards to be accepted as a european country, theoretically spoken of course, which begins at human rights (execution and stuff) and ends with your thriving economic situation. But just like in Nazideutschland, war fires up the economic-oven... :(


A National Anthem and brainwashing can be the same thing, but can also be two entirely seperate entities. I like to think America has, and will continue to believe the latter. Yes, there are plenty of Americans who dont know where Washington DC is, nevermind Iraq. No argument there.

Yes, entirely true what you say. Just this: the human being on itself is intelligent, but it's stupid in masses. Come on, there are so many stupid people running around and those just can't make out the difference, you knwo that as much as i do. So why run the risk?


Wrong. Morals are imposed on us daily and for good reason. Most of the laws we abide by are based on moral values, and without them we would certainly degrade into one of the current "repressive" or "oppresive"
regimes we so despise and seek to end.

I wasn't talking about moral values towards each other. I differenciate between society and civilization. Towards society we should not be imposed moral values, but to civilization itself, yes, please! "Don't kill" as a moral obligation towards civilization is an obligation i gladly accept, singing the national anthem for a society is not.

One of our most important moral obligations as a free society is to guard and to propagate freedom.

Even to people who just have a different understanding of that concept than you do? isn't that exactly the opposite of what you pretend to do? I mean, you are imposing freedom on others sometimes. Oh don't get me wrong, i do believe that Iraq was not free and under a dictatorship, but come on, many people were okay with that, and even in your country people 'go missing' sometimes and tv stations such as cnn are obviously a propaganda machine.


Ok, common sense works too. :)

Lol, good one :) I mean the joke, i don't mean it ironically :)

Going to bed now....03:44AM....jeez and i have to get up at 9 :(

Night night
 

ThePatriot

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All good counter-points. Let me just say this...Did you even bother to read the thread about "how much sleep do you get a night"??? You are obviously in the "sleep deprived" catagory and I'm glad I don't have to drive on the same road to get to work as you...

:p :D :eek:


Good night! (Morning?)
 

Sazar

Rest In Peace
Joined
12 Apr 2002
Messages
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I just got done reading through some posts over the past couple of pages...

please keep the discussions clean lads... we all have opinions.. I know I am one hell of an opionated nut myself :cool: but we have all kinds of people reading these forums and due to that as well as due to the common respect for the posters and people addressed in some of the posts please refrain from using derogatory terms...

things like "Kerry is lurch" or "bush is a monkey" comments are of a different nature since they are both public personalities and therefore there is more leeway for them...

but do go easy on the personal comments as well as slang used...

cheers :cool:
 

Xie

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ThePatriot said:
Based on lies, hardly. Bad intel maybe.
I'd be interested to know what those in the UK saw on TV (or other media) about these "WMD". I remember watching the presentation on TV to Congress and saying to myself "WTF? .. thats a couple of 18-wheelers..." and thats about the extent of what these crazy satellite photo's showed. He then showed some vials that were to contain anthrax, as it was the big thing at the time, and said that Iraq probably had tons of it and just a bit could be put into the air and kill millions. I have no idea how based on this info we allowed our troops to invade Iraq. Why not send inspectors to check the locations of these "WMD" or anthrax .. I mean we knew right were it was .. we had satellite photo's! :p I just think with the extreme lack of info and then extreme overhype of this info it was all but lies as they really had no idea what Iraq had and just wanted to get Saddam out. Anyhoo </rant>.
 

Sazar

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xie... the inspectors were on the ground checking up till right before the invasion...

they checked at many of the locations they were asked to check as well..
 

Xie

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Sazar said:
xie... the inspectors were on the ground checking up till right before the invasion...

they checked at many of the locations they were asked to check as well..
I know .. and what did they find is my point. ;)
 

Son Goku

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BTW, this whole discussion reminds me of one I had in high school with the US history teacher (speaking of war, Iraq, and what not). Needless to say, it wasn't a subject which was brought up in class, but I had read the Pentagon Papers outside of class.

He remembered back to when they first got published and told me that at the time (before their publication) he would never have thought of questioning the government. He sided with the official line, and that was pretty much that. He also said he remembered when they were first published in the New York Times, and for him (and others it was suggested) it was a real eye opener. When I had met him, he had since become a bit of a cynic in life, if you will...
 

Grandmaster

Electronica Addict
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To lighten the mood a bit:

usofcanada.jpg


:D

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041104-013/page.asp
 

Xie

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Joined
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Nice post Grandmaster. I heard on the news yesterday that since the election the traffic to the Canadian immigration site has had its traffic increase 6x that of normal traffic.
 

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Also Hi EP and people. I found this place again while looking through a oooollllllldddd backup. I have filled over 10TB and was looking at my collection of antiques. Any bids on the 500Mhz Win 95 fix?
Any of the SP crew still out there?
Xie wrote on Electronic Punk's profile.
Impressed you have kept this alive this long EP! So many sites have come and gone. :(

Just did some crude math and I apparently joined almost 18yrs ago, how is that possible???
hello peeps... is been some time since i last came here.
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Rest in peace my friend, been trying to find you and finally did in the worst way imaginable.

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