Fahrenheit/ spoilers

[Perris Calderon]

the threads been lost, but I'll try to give a synopsis as best I can...of course, anyone is welcome to repost what they had to say on the original thread

a little difference that I'll state up front so that politics unassociated with this movie are not under debate

this thread is a review of the movie...it's not a commentary venue for political opinion...though that will happen if we discuss this film, those of you that won't go see the flick can't judge the accuracy or the inaccuracy of what Moore conciders his "facts".

first I have to make clear to everyone that my opinion is not objective since I have serious issues with this presidents actions, his lack of actions, the results of his strategy, and his entire record of performance ...take my opinion with a grain of salt

I found the movie eye opening..,it presented actual news footage and paper documentation which most Americans do not know exist, but all Americans need to see.

this includes footage of the president when he was told of the first attack on the world trade center, and then his actions (or lack of actions) when he was told about the second plane hitting the world trade center.

while I knew about the information, I didn't realize there was actual footage, and watching it was dumbfounding...if you go see the film, look around the audience, and watch the expressions on their face as they see how our president reacted to this emergency.

that's just one example of many of what Moore brings to this movie...if you concider yourself a person that wants to weigh all the information concerning issues in America, it's important for you to see this film

HOWEVER...this movie is (in my opinion), a heavily biased film that presents only the liberal point of view.

there is no balance as most documentaries will at least attempt...it is in essence, an anti Bush advertisement in my opinion

I know that others think this film has balance and is fair to this administration...I am not among those people...I think this film is entirely unfair in it's presentation;

for instance, as I stated on the first thread, Moore finds footage of Bush and Rice while they are getting make-up for a news conference..the footage is very uncomplimentary...this is footage has nothing to do with the man, his decisions, or the facts that Moore tries to the footage.

I was offended at this divisive technique, and I wish Moore stuck to facts that we could either agree or disagree with

another example is how Moore takes advantage, and exploits a family that is suffering because they lost a child in the war...again, this was inappropriate...if I were for the war, there would still be families that suffer because of it, and I was again offended with this portion of the "documentary"

in any event, I think I'd like to point out again that in my community that is registered a majority of republicans, this movie was sold out at a 12 midnight showing...it also actually received an abundant applause at the end, with a few people standing in appreciation.

THOSE THAT GO TO THIS MOVIE NEED TO REALIZE THAT IT'S INFORMATION THAT NEEDS TO BE WEIGHED AGAINST OTHER INFORMATION, and you should not believe that Moore has no agenda.

that said, please go and see it...come back and tell us what you think Moore exaggerated on, and what he was right on.

but no debates from those that haven't seen the documentation.

 

[Sazar]

here's my take on the flick...

its NOT a movie... its a documentary...

moore basically is connecting the dots with publicly available footage/documents and information and presenting his case with his perspective..

its a very strong case because he makes few points/arguments that are refutable...

the pacing is tight (imo) and the subject matter is EXTREMELY thought provoking..

I had considered brushing off the work earlier but my gf wanted to watch it (surprising coz she's a republican) and so we did... and I am glad I had a chance to watch it..

not many documentaries move me but moore uses footage of soldiers in action and of bush enjoying himself and business-men plotting to turn a profit in iraq off the future oil-based economic potential of the nation... moore doesn't make this stuff up naturally coz he is using ACTUAL footage from the meetings (ah those damn photo-ops, who knew there would be evidence left over)

for me anyways it was a well-paced work and the music and the footage tied things together well enough...

moore doesn't try to hammer his points into you which would have made the work absolutely and un-revocably biased... instead he presents his points throughout and tries to make the audience think about what has happened, what they have been presented with and then decide for themselves...

I enjoy this approach better than force-feeding propaganda..

I know a lot of people will refuse to watch the flick for political reasons and it is unfortunately their loss

its not so much an anti-war/anti-bush flick as much as it is a documentary that links (solidly) bush via various business ventures and partners to a lot of that which has happened over the past 3-4 years... I spose the neo-cons know that if people watch these facts and learn some of them that bush has little chance of getting re-elected...

keep in mind moore has no love for bush but he doesn't bash him in this documentary so much as basically present bush as bush and link him to certain things that bush does not himself provide and most people will refuse to acknowledge...

I give it a 4/5 OSNN star rating for being provocative...

p.s. if you wish to comment on the documentary and ask questions relevant to the topic please do so... if you wish to provide 1,000 line long accountings of what clinton did or reagan did or whatever else please do so in another thread... thanks

 

[Son Goku]

Now saz, this is where it comes in handy that you put similar reviews up on NVN and here It saved you more then making a seperate review. Copy and paste can be useful...

Anyhow, I'll probably go see it this weekend sometime.

 

[j79zlr]

its NOT a movie... its a documentary...

False. Think Oliver Stone, and you get the idea.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I know a lot of people will refuse to watch the flick for political reasons and it is unfortunately their loss

those that support this president have for the most part refused to see this movie.

why?

I don't get it...if this were a documentary against a politician that I believed in, I would surely go to see it.

I WANT TO KNOW THAT THE PERSON I SUPPORT IS THE RIGHT PERSON TO SUPPORT

and if the documentary is flawed, I want to tell everyone why.

but that's me

 

[Perris Calderon]

False. Think Oliver Stone, and you get the idea.

have you seen the film to make that judgement j79?

here's what I don't understand;

there are those people that support this president that will refuse to see this movie.

why is that?

if there were a documentary, or "movie" that discredited a politician that I supported, I would surely go to see if my support was indicated or not.

and if I found the "documentary" flawed, I would want to be able to say so and prove it.

but I guess that's just me

 

[Sazar]

False. Think Oliver Stone, and you get the idea.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=documentary

fyi I had added that part on a different forums when I cut'paste my post from the original thread from here wrt something someone else was debating about there...

if you have a problem with my calling it a documentary thats fine... you can lodge a complaint... if you have something pertinent to discuss wrt the documentary feel free to contribute j79...

if you are just going to go after posters because you disagree with something they said or whatever thats a little off and its not constructive...

 

[j79zlr]

I have a problem with people thinking that anything truthful can be taken from this "documentary". The reason I will not pay money to see this film is because I do not want to put any money in Moore's pocket, the man who bad mouths companies that are profitting from the war in Iraq, yet he is precisely doing exactly that. Can't get anything past them liberals.

Read here for a few minutes, maybe you'd see why I dont want to see it, http://moorewatch.com/index.php/C18/

 

[Sazar]

if you don't want to watch the film or comment on anything pertinent (coz you haven't watched the film) perhaps you should start an alternate thread about the fallacies of moore and his documentary...

from what I have seen of the documentary there is no editing of the clips in the news which can therefore be considered factual... there are documents and accounts present of people hence that can be considered factual... but you haven't seen it so you would not know and your assertion that its not a documentary is based on hearsay...

looking @ other reviews of movies and the like we dont have this kind of discussion... I didn't trash the troy movie thread by posting all kinds of factoids about why the movie was bad... I watched it and expressed my opinion...

fahrenheit 9/11 indeed has bias in it as has been mentioned by the people who have watched it and presented their reviews for the consideration of others in a constructive manner... it is your choice NOT to watch the movie per your reasons but over the past 2 threads on this topic you have a specified agenda to trash not only f 9/11 but clinton and all liberals collectively...

as suggested before you have every right to start a new thread and present the conspiracy theories based off of your perspectives on why clinton or kerry or whoever other democrat you can think of is bad and why george bush is good... thats great but if all you are going to do is attack the movie without even having seen it thats a little tough to swallow...

gigli I can understand... that was DOA but this is a different matter... there are real and personal accounts of soldiers and families of soldiers and footage about iraq you are unlikely to see anywhere else than on some obscure site somewhere or archived news reels... things like that and descriptions of what the businesses are looking to do there are what I thought were the most real aspect of the documentary... the al-qaeda links and all that is a separate matter...

 

[Son Goku]

What is the point of responding to a movie review with "it's all lies..." when one hasn't even seen it? Lets see, people who have watched the movie already know what they saw, and are in a better position to comment. People who haven't, when given a choice between the word of peeps who have viewed the film, and those who are speaking from hear say, are going to naturally take the word of someone who viewed it.

If someone wants to intelligably be able to debate the points of the movie, it's perhaps best to know what those points are? In the original thread, I made all of 2 replies, the first to ask saz if it was different then I was expecting...and the second, in responce to some points that were brought out, and to mention certain collaboration, per Richard Clarke's book, and certain business connections with members of the Bush admin and Saudi Arabia, per indication in another book I've read through Weapons of Mass Deception. I guess he didn't get to see my comments though, although I have discussed such matters with him before.

Because I hadn't watched the movie yet, I haven't said much, however. What is really the point? Tell me saz, or whomever if this is going to far (sorry if it is), but I'm going to give mention to a joke I made up sometime back, concerning rantitious

-----------------------------------
Working definition for rantitis
---------------------------

Indications: Rantitis appears to be a condition in which posters hit the "post reply" button without either

- Reading the quote provided
- Taking a look at the cited link being replied to
- Watching the movie they're giving a review comment for

Another variant of this can be taking one word of another posters post, and constructing an entire rant around it, even while that word is not the main or a pertinent point of the post.

Further indications:
------------------

The degree of contagion for this condition is not entirely known at this time. However, rantitis seems to be at least mildly contagious among those directly subjected to this condition.

Possible treatment:
------------------

- Taking a little breather and comming back after one is clear of mind and relaxed of body. Alternatively

- Make a conscious effort to actually read the material presented, before replying to it.

j/k

 

[gonaads]

I have a problem with people thinking that anything truthful can be taken from this "documentary". The reason I will not pay money to see this film is because I do not want to put any money in Moore's pocket, the man who bad mouths companies that are profitting from the war in Iraq, yet he is precisely doing exactly that. Can't get anything past them liberals.

Read here for a few minutes, maybe you'd see why I dont want to see it, http://moorewatch.com/index.php/C18/

If you got to see the movie for free, would you see it??? Probably not.

If you feel that it is not factual, then go see it and point out it's fallacies. You probably won't.

I am not a liberal nor a consevative. I am not a Democrat nor a Republican. YES, I do vote... always. But I WILL see this movie/documentary and make up my own mind as to what I feel for and from this cinematic endevore.

I don't care about Moore's views one way or the other, so I go with a neutral point of view. But more importantly, with an open mind.


I have always thought and known that in order to make a rational, concise, factual opinion of any subject matter, you have to view, read, and then make commentary to said subject matter. You don't comment nor criticize anything in a biased fashion and expect anyone to take you any more seriously than a narrow minded person who sees only what they want to and not what is.

Now I am not saying that this film is nor am I saying it isn't, anything. I have not seen it yet. But I will not post anything to the contrary nor to praise it since I have not seen it.

 

[Sazar]

letz make babiez gonaads

 

[Perris Calderon]

I have a problem with people thinking that anything truthful can be taken from this "documentary".

it's your obligation as a patriot of America to prove what's wrong with this movie (after you see it) if you believe that it's incorrect ...so much of the movie is too damaging for this administration to let it go as if it's fact

The reason I will not pay money to see this film is because I do not want to put any money in Moore's pocket

can you listen to yourself use this as some kind of excuse to avoid this movie?

the man who bad mouths companies that are profitting from the war in Iraq, yet he is precisely doing exactly that. Can't get anything past them liberals.

I'm sorry...your point is getting past this liberal...the money moore is making on the movie is not money demanded by the government...I guess this point is getting past the conservatives that look for any reason to avoid the movie.

Read here for a few minutes, maybe you'd see why I dont want to see it, http://moorewatch.com/index.php/C18/

?????? are you serious?
I read that link...now I know some of the other points of view...if I wanted to join the site, I would easily debate what they have to say

now it's your turn to debate what this movie has to say...though you've got to see the movie to do it....you will instead critisize the movie without seeing it.

it's incredible j79 that you pride yourself on being informed, yet you find whatever reason you can come up with to avoid the information simply because it casts dispersion on a politician you support

 

[Perris Calderon]

letz make babiez gonaads

you're right sazar...that is one excellant post by gonaads

 

[Sazar]

I don't want babiez coz of the post

that skeleton turns me on

 

[gonaads]

letz make babiez gonaads

I don't want babiez coz of the post

that skeleton turns me on

Hahahaha... You leave my ummmm... boner, alone.

 

[Tuffgong4]

ok I support the president and have watched the movie but I support him because I loathe the democratic party so much even though our president is a moron...

here is a great article that my brother sent me titled the Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

 

[Perris Calderon]

tuffgong, the article you posted has ridiculous criticism of the "facts" of this movie...such as making claims of misdirection by the director that don't exist.

all Americans need to see the film and then come to whatever conclusion they will come to after evaluating both the movie and the criticism of the movie.

for instance, you've made the decision that even though you find the president a moron, better a moron running America then a Democrat.

it's a valid assessment if you think any democrat would do a worse job then the president that's in office by simple virtue that the person in office is a republican

plenty of people feel exactly the same as you...it's a party loyalty thing.

by the way...I was in a multiplex the other day to see spiderman...I popped my head in the Fahrenheit theater to see if the movie was still crowded

Fahrenheit had more seats occupied, (about 90%) then spidey...interesting.

 

[Sazar]

ok I support the president and have watched the movie but I support him because I loathe the democratic party so much even though our president is a moron...

here is a great article that my brother sent me titled the Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

is there any truth to what moore says then?





I dont hear many conservatives saying anything about the truths in the documentary but most of them rails about how evil moore is and stuff...

btw I understand what you say about the democratic party, I am not big fan of theirs but here's the way I see it...

the president of america is a person elected by the american people to do a job... it is his responsibility to live up to the expectations he induced in us when campagining for the job... if that president fails to live up to expectations than he has failed to live upto the standards of the office...

the way I look @ it (my opinion here btw.. not that of OSNN or anyone else) is that bush has not lived up to his end of the bargain... I know very well that moore has put things in his perspective but the lies and deceits that the conservatives are upset about are not that bad... I don't see the conservatives pointing out how evil moore is because he bashes the democrats either because it suits their needs

its all politics m8...

simply bush has failed in his obligations to lead this nation and hence he needs to be replaced either by kerry or someone else... I don't let my hatred for a particular party cloud my judgement in making a call which I feel will affect the whole of the country...

if you feel that having a moron (your words) is a better option than so be it...

 

[vern]

I like Moore, and I liked his previous work, but you can't watch this movie and expect to find a balanced view. He made the film with the sole purpose to bash Bush right before the election. He gives us a view, but not all views. Every American should see the movie, knowing that the film gives no attempt to be fair. I hate to see a movie like this impact people's decision when they go out and vote instead of taking in the real issues. It's bad for America, and ultimately will have the same effect as any other propaganda film out there.