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512 Cards

Terrahertz

Extinction Agenda
Political User
#1
I was over at Hardocp reading the Doom hardware guide. Then I got to the part with the different quality settings in Doom III. I was smiling until I got to the Ultra High Mode section. I mean you need a bloody video card with 512 megs of ram to run it properly:eek:. Alright I need to know when are these cards going to drop? Ill order right from the fabrication plant if I have to:).

Will 512 just be for PCI exp or will agp also have it?
 

Doom

OSNN Senior Addict
#2
As far as I know the only availible 512mb cards are developer ones at the moment. With Doom 3 coming out though you'll soon see Nv and ATI making them for home users too. They'll be bloody pricy though (as if graphics cards ain't already).
 

Terrahertz

Extinction Agenda
Political User
#3
Doom 3 is 3 days from now they need to release these things already. They used a ATI Radeon X800XT-PE at 1600x1200 to test High and Ultra Quality settings.
 

onimkron

OSNN Senior Addict
#4
I always thought the amount of memory for a graphics card was redundant, since not many games are capable of utilising so much bandwith. Still hard to believe that Doom will really require some hefty hardware to run at max settings :eek:
 
#7
dunno, but with pci-x, woulnt the card be able to access the system memory faster (for texture, when it runs outta onboard memory) so it would hardly matter? or maybe it will still be slow as heck using system memory...
seeing as how 256 hardly matters as of now, even on high-end cards (as seen in
9800pro->xt (128mb) mod VS 9800xt (256mb) or
5900 (xt / ultra / le / se / etc) clocked at 5950 (128mb) VS 5950 ultra (256mb)
-- hardly any difference... ---
I dont know if 512 is worth the cost to end users.. bleh.
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#8
the game is capped ingame @ 60fps...

there is no discernible difference between ultra nad high quality modes... just a small amount of texture sharpness... most of the non-character models are not affected... same with medium and low...

the higher the mem the smoother stuff will run with more character detail/shadow

the shadows are the single most demanding thing in doom3...

pretty much every single shadow is dynamic and does take a toll on the card...

I have a few numbers that hopefully will be posted soon showing relative performance on my system vis-a-vis doom 3... for me the game is completely playable @ 1280x1024 at high settings...
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#10
doom3 is effectively a dx7 level game... dx8 support does not mean much therefore... there are a coupla advanced lighting shaders and the like which make doom3 more complex/advanced than most dx8 level games but it should run just fine on most cards of a gf3 level and above (things powerful enough to handle the calculations for the shadows)

but as I said it does not appear that higher settings make the game look any better...

if you want to make the game run faster... turn off the shadows :cool:
 

Son Goku

No lover of dogma
#11
Sazar said:
doom3 is effectively a dx7 level game... dx8 support does not mean much therefore... there are a coupla advanced lighting shaders and the like which make doom3 more complex/advanced than most dx8 level games but it should run just fine on most cards of a gf3 level and above (things powerful enough to handle the calculations for the shadows)
BTW, you might want to check that again. Shaders were not introduced until Direct X 8. The DX 7 T&L was the hardware T&L unit which was present in the GeForce 256 and GeForce 2 GTS...

Course the point is mote anyhow, as it's a OGL game...

Edit: Little info

http://www.cfxweb.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1305

The introduction of a programmable pipeline to DirectX allows far greater control over how objects are rendered to the screen. DirectX 8 introduced two new programmable sections, the Vertex Shader, and the Pixel Shader. The vertex shader can control vertex positions, colors, and texturing coordinates. The pixel shader provides control over the way each individual pixel is rendered to the screen.
http://tech-report.com/reviews/2001q2/geforce3/index.x?pg=1

The keys to the GeForce3's new approach to rendering are two of the chip's main functional units, dubbed vertex and pixel shaders.
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#12
Son Goku said:
BTW, you might want to check that again. Shaders were not introduced until Direct X 8. The DX 7 T&L was the hardware T&L unit which was present in the GeForce 256 and GeForce 2 GTS...

Course the point is mote anyhow, as it's a OGL game...

Edit: Little info

http://www.cfxweb.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1305

http://tech-report.com/reviews/2001q2/geforce3/index.x?pg=1
that is precisely why I said it was effectively a dx7 level tech.. most of the tech in doom3 is of a dx7 level... its an OGL game remember and thats how to correlate relevant tech...

the shaders for the game are probably comparable with some dx9 shaders... i just don't think saying ps 1.1 or 1.3 or 1.4 really says much when talking about doom3... the specular and bump-mapping effects look akin to dx9 effects from far cry...
 

Son Goku

No lover of dogma
#13
Sazar said:
that is precisely why I said it was effectively a dx7 level card... most of the tech in doom3 is of a dx7 level... its an OGL game remember and thats how to correlate relevant tech...
Actually, Pixel Shaders didn't exist at all in Direct X 7... Pixel Shader 1.0 was introduced in Direct X 8.0 As I remember, and I could look this up, Direct X 7.0 only had the hardware T&L unit (aka games like MDK2 and what not used this, though there weren't many). The GeForce 3 included the hardware T&L unit for backward compatibility, but the Geforce 3 was a Direct X 8, not a DX 7 card... The GeForce 256 was a DX 7 card...

the shaders for the game are probably comparable with some dx9 shaders... i just don't think saying ps 1.1 or 1.3 or 1.4 really says much when talking about doom3...
You see, comparing it to a DX 7 game (equivalent), leaves me scratching my head a bit ;) Because if it uses shaders, and DX 8 was the very first version of Direct X to introduce shaders...to be equivalent to DX 7 level tech, wouldn't it be using the hardware T&L unit that existed on the GeForce 256, or be doing functions that the hard wired T&L unit, aka pre-GeForce 3 could provide?
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#14
Son Goku said:
Actually, Pixel Shaders didn't exist at all in Direct X 7... Pixel Shader 1.0 was introduced in Direct X 8.0 As I remember, and I could look this up, Direct X 7.0 only had the hardware T&L unit (aka games like MDK2 and what not used this, though there weren't many). The GeForce 3 included the hardware T&L unit for backward compatibility, but the Geforce 3 was a Direct X 8, not a DX 7 card... The GeForce 256 was a DX 7 card...

You see, comparing it to a DX 7 game (equivalent), leaves me scratching my head a bit ;) Because if it uses shaders, and DX 8 was the very first version of Direct X to introduce shaders...to be equivalent to DX 7 level tech, wouldn't it be using the hardware T&L unit that existed on the GeForce 256, or be doing functions that the hard wired T&L unit, aka pre-GeForce 3 could provide?
songoku... what are you trying to say that I have not already said?
 

Son Goku

No lover of dogma
#15
Umm, it seems, from your description that you might not exactly have a fact or 2 straight :D It looks as if you're thinking that either the GeForce 3 is a Direct X 7 card (it is not), or that pixel shaders existed in Direct X 7...they had not.

If you said that Doom 3 was the equivalent of a DX 8 game, I would not be scratching my head...

DX 7 level tech would be the fixed function T&L unit which existed in the GeForce 256...before shaders (aka programable T&L) came to be...
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#16
no... i very clearly stated that the doom3 engine is basically a dx7 level tech...

I very clearly stated that the engine employs a coupla shaders which are of a similar quality to a dx8+ level...

I very clearly stated if you are playing on a gf3 and above you should be fine to play the game...

I did not imply that a gf3 was dx7...

i did not imply that shaders were part of the spec in dx7...

and I have not discussed the machitecture of video cards in this thread...
 

Son Goku

No lover of dogma
#17
Sazar said:
no... i very clearly stated that the doom3 engine is basically a dx7 level tech...
But then the game shouldn't use shaders... Shaders are DX8 level tech. PS 1.1, 1.2, etc has nothing to do with it. That they're used does... And if one is saying they're used, but implies this is DX 7 level tech, well, hmm... If shader support is required of the hardware, that for me would be the demarcation point between DX7 level and DX8 level tech :)

I very clearly stated if you are playing on a gf3 and above you should be fine to play the game...
And how does this have anything to do with it being the equivalent of DX7 level tech :D A DX 7 level game was MDK 2, and it ran on a GeForce 256. I would contend that a DX7 level game should not require a GF3, except perhaps for a performance boost, but should be perfectly capable of being run on a GeForce 2 GTS, albeit perhaps very slowly. To be the equivalent of a DX7 game, it should not require hardware that a DX8 level card can only supply...

Ah well, considering it's a OGL game anyway...the point perhaps is a bit mote. I consider you a friend, so I'd rather not argue with you openly as such. Just thought I'd point something out, is all... :)
 

Sazar

F@H - Is it in you?
Staff member
Political User
#19
Son Goku said:
But then the game shouldn't use shaders... Shaders are DX8 level tech. PS 1.1, 1.2, etc has nothing to do with it. That they're used does... And if one is saying they're used, but implies this is DX 7 level tech, well, hmm... If shader support is required of the hardware, that for me would be the demarcation point between DX7 level and DX8 level tech :)
you are mistaking correlation with what the doom3 engine actually contains...

saying something is analogous to something else does not mean that it has to have the exact same components... only that the relative technology is on par... the engine itself is generally @ a tech level of directx 7... the shaders that are present for shadowing/lighting and for bump-mapping and the like basically push beyond that envelope...

the fact that gun-metal has a coupla extra long shaders does not imply it is a dx9 benchmark... but rather it is effectively a dx8 benchmark with a coupla extra long shaders... see my point?

And how does this have anything to do with it being the equivalent of DX7 level tech :D A DX 7 level game was MDK 2, and it ran on a GeForce 256. I would contend that a DX7 level game should not require a GF3, except perhaps for a performance boost, but should be perfectly capable of being run on a GeForce 2 GTS, albeit perhaps very slowly. To be the equivalent of a DX7 game, it should not require hardware that a DX8 level card can only supply...
you are just going round in circles... I pointed out what I stated... we both know this is an OGL game... you are taking an comparison between relative engine tech compared on a similar playing field to imply something else...

the gf4mx series and ati 7500 series can be said to SUPPORT directx 8... that "support" does not convert to real-world application however? this is why I said dx8 support does not matter much... hope this part is clearer...

Ah well, considering it's a OGL game anyway...the point perhaps is a bit mote. I consider you a friend, so I'd rather not argue with you openly as such. Just thought I'd point something out, is all... :)
you are pointing out things that I did not allude to in the first place... it is well and good to point things out that are in fact incorrect and the like but when you are just pointing out the same thing over and over again about something that has not been described in the manner you think it was it does make it a little irritating...

it IS an OGL game and that in itself should have rendered the last 3-4 posts we have had completely irrelevant...
 

Terrahertz

Extinction Agenda
Political User
#20
Well this answered my question although its filled with much tech love.

and well
But then the game shouldn't use shaders... Shaders are DX8 level tech. PS 1.1, 1.2, etc has nothing to do with it. That they're used does... And if one is saying they're used, but implies this is DX 7 level tech, well, hmm... If shader support is required of the hardware, that for me would be the demarcation point between DX7 level and DX8 level tech
Doesnt mean you cant add extensions to it man.:rolleyes:
 

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