[Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. - Page 2

**NetRyder** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by muzikool

It will be fine, but will it be the best since 95? I'm almost positive I've heard that claim from Microsoft itself.

It's just marketing-speak. Every company does it. Apple calls OS X the "world’s most advanced operating system." It's just a claim - one that not everyone agrees with. Similarly, Vista might not be the best release of Windows since Win95 for everybody. It depends on what each user wants and expects.

Originally Posted by muzikool

At this point I would hope they were nitpicking the heck out of a mostly final product. Have the feature set complete, the GUI done, and spend the time left fixing every little bug that's reported by testers.

Builds will be feature-complete internally by the end of the year, according to the current schedule. That leaves them with several months for tweaks, polish, and performance-tuning before RTM. Bug-fixing is an ongoing process, not something that's being left for the last minute - they've been fixing bugs that we've been reporting since 5112 (Beta 1).

**muzikool** · December 9th, 2005

It's marketing-speak to compare your product to your competitors' ... but to compare it to your own?

Microsoft can claim that Vista will be the world's best OS. Fine with me. But if they say it's the best transition since 3.1 to 95, then it had better be.

**kcnychief** · December 9th, 2005

I think they are more along the lines of trying to outline advancements. If you look at the timeline and changes from 3.1 to Windows 95, as well as performance gained, security, features, productivity, its practically un-measurable. I would think that is the method to their madness behind their claim.

**muzikool** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by kcnychief

I think they are more along the lines of trying to outline advancements. If you look at the timeline and changes from 3.1 to Windows 95, as well as performance gained, security, features, productivity, its practically un-measurable. I would think that is the method to their madness behind their claim.

I agree it is practically unmeasureable. That's why my expectation were so high for Vista. Microsoft put my expectations where they were, and now I am doubting them. Can you blame me?

**NetRyder** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by muzikool

It's marketing-speak to compare your product to your competitors' ... but to compare it to your own?

...is still marketing-speak.

At the end of the day, the goal of product marketing is to sell as many copies as possible. They can do that by comparing Vista to OS X or Linux, but the rate at which people are "switching" is not high enough compared to the number of people who are running Win9x in this day and age because they think it's "good enough."

Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself. There are people who still run Win98 today. There are corporations that still run Win2k. The job of marketing is to convince these prospective customers to upgrade; hence the comparisons made to older versions of Windows rather than to the competition.

**muzikool** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by NetRyder

Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself.

I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point.

**kcnychief** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by NetRyder

...is still marketing-speak.

At the end of the day, the goal of product marketing is to sell as many copies as possible. They can do that by comparing Vista to OS X or Linux, but the rate at which people are "switching" is not high enough compared to the number of people who are running Win9x in this day and age because it's "good enough."

Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself. There are people who still run Win98 today. There are corporations that still run Win2k. The job of marketing is to convince these prospective customers to upgrade; hence the comparisons made to older versions of Windows rather than to the competition.

Very good point

**NetRyder** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by muzikool

I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point.

If you ask me for my honest opinion, I'd say there are enough reasons to justify an upgrade from XP to Vista for home users and corporate customers alike, although I completely understand that the uptake in the corporate space is going to be slower because of the extensive testing that needs to be done before a large-scale rollout.

Since I'm not part of product marketing, I won't make any "best thing since sliced bread" claims, but I really do believe that there is still something in it for everybody. XP's silver bullet over 9x was massively improved stability and reliability. Vista has several things going for it too that make it a worthwhile upgrade, in my opinion. But again, in the end, it depends on what you expect and want from it.

**Electronic Punk** · December 9th, 2005

*rubs hands together*

**Grandmaster** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by muzikool

I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point.

Like Kunal pointed out everyone will have their own expectations of what "better than 3.1 to win9x" means. So your post is only stating the obvious.

Sure there are negative reports, but have you read the positive ones? I agree, it's too early to make final judgements, but I guess it's in my nature to be more optimistic.

**kcnychief** · December 9th, 2005

haha, best thing since slided bread, I love it

I think the corporate world will be slower to upgrade than normal consumers, but that is the same for most. Only now are companies thinking about, let alone migrating to Server 2K3. In regards to XP, I can't think of any companies that have 100% made the switch yet. Also to be mentioned, alot of the upgrade requires staffing and down time from supporting other issues. For example, you can't blanket upgrade the entire company if you are pushing out new applications, dealing with viruses, training employees/clients on new versions, etc.

I have to follow our OSNN father EP, and say...

*rubs hands together*

**muzikool** · December 9th, 2005

High expectations are always a bad idea and it's my fault for having them, though I didn't plant them artificially.

I am generally optimistic, but I guess this is a case of allowing the media to guide my opinion of how things are going. Without getting specific, it reminds me of the Iraqi war.

For the record I do believe Vista will be worth the upgrade from XP.

**kcnychief** · December 9th, 2005

I wouldn't say you are at fault, we are led to have high expectations from the media and what the company, in this case Microsoft, pimps out about their product. The real test is to see how let down, if at all, you will be when it comes out to market and how you deal with it

Personally, I'm never happy, but that's why I love being a "geek", because I always want to learn, I always want more, and until I stop getting more, I'm gonna keep on keepin' on

**NetRyder** · December 9th, 2005

Originally Posted by kcnychief

Personally, I'm never happy, but that's why I love being a "geek", because I always want to learn, I always want more, and until I stop getting more, I'm gonna keep on keepin' on

Of course. Vista is not going to be the be-all end-all of operating systems (don't let product marketing or the media fool you into believing that if they ever try!). But we're going to have new stuff to play with - new apps included that didn't exist in XP, improvements to those that already exist. Things that didn't work like we wanted them to in XP will work better, if not just the way we want them to. Nicer UI, tighter security, improved reliability (look up TxF) etc.

At the same time, there's always going to be room for improvement, there are always going to be things that we won't like, things that won't work like we want them to. That's the case with every OS. It gives us something to look forward to - in this case, that something will be Blackcomb.

**NetRyder** · December 15th, 2005

Another update - Build 5270 is apparently the Dec CTP and will possibly be released on Monday.
Perfect timing!

Sources at Microsoft have told me that the eagerly-awaited December Community Technical Preview (CTP) build of Windows Vista will be delivered to beta testers on Monday. According to my sources, the CTP is build 5270 (5270.x86fre.winmain_idx03.051212-1830).

In various meetings with the Windows Vista team last week, I was told on the record that the December CTP would be build 5276 "give or take one build." I was shown both builds 5270 and 5276 at the time.

Microsoft recently altered its delivery schedule for Windows Vista to focus more on CTP builds, which could arrive as often as once every month, and less on major beta milestones. The company had originally planned to ship a public preview version of Windows Vista Beta 2 to the public by the end of 2005, but that preview will likely be based on a future CTP build and will arrive in the first half of 2006 instead.

Earlier this month, Microsoft promised two Vista deliverables for December. The first, the December CTP, is a dramatic improvement over previous CTPs and includes many new features. In late December, Microsoft will ship internally a feature-complete build of Windows Vista. That build will form the basis for the next CTP, due in January of February 2006. After that, the company will focus solely on bug fixes and fit and finish issues, and will not add any more major new features to the product.

http://www.windowsitpro.com/windowsp...ott_48774.html

**Electronic Punk** · December 15th, 2005

Whats so good about monday?

**kcnychief** · December 15th, 2005

Originally Posted by Electronic Punk

Whats so good about monday?

He will be done with finals, silly man!

No school = more time for Beta testing and blogging

**Electronic Punk** · December 15th, 2005

I let everything get in the way with my education and I turned out ok?

Seriously tho, good luck with your exams (?)!

**Grandmaster** · December 15th, 2005

Originally Posted by kcnychief

He will be done with finals, silly man!

No school = more time for Beta testing and blogging

Indeed. Feckers should make it public already!

And yes I am aware that I can get ahold of it via other methods, I'd rather not.

**NetRyder** · December 15th, 2005

Omar, I think it'll be worth the wait. Every CTP has been getting progressively better.

And yes, the Chief is right about the reason for Monday being the perfect day.
Friday = end of finals, tired as hell...go to sleep.
Saturday = move to a new room, pack stuff for the trip.
Sunday = fly to NYC, reach at night.
Monday = new CTP!

Originally Posted by Electronic Punk

I let everything get in the way with my education and I turned out ok?

I let lots of things come in the way of academics...beta testing an OS is just not one of them.

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #21
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by muzikool It will be fine, but will it be the best since 95? I'm almost positive I've heard that claim from Microsoft itself. It's just marketing-speak. Every company does it. Apple calls OS X the "world’s most advanced operating system." It's just a claim - one that not everyone agrees with. Similarly, Vista might not be the best release of Windows since Win95 for everybody. It depends on what each user wants and expects. Originally Posted by muzikool At this point I would hope they were nitpicking the heck out of a mostly final product. Have the feature set complete, the GUI done, and spend the time left fixing every little bug that's reported by testers. Builds will be feature-complete internally by the end of the year, according to the current schedule. That leaves them with several months for tweaks, polish, and performance-tuning before RTM. Bug-fixing is an ongoing process, not something that's being left for the last minute - they've been fixing bugs that we've been reporting since 5112 (Beta 1). http://kunal.kundaje.net

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #22
muzikool Act your wage. Joined: December 2001 Location: Texas, USA Reputation: Yes, please. Posts: 7,626 Reputation: 2900 Power: 229	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. It's marketing-speak to compare your product to your competitors' ... but to compare it to your own? Microsoft can claim that Vista will be the world's best OS. Fine with me. But if they say it's the best transition since 3.1 to 95, then it had better be.

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #23
kcnychief █▄█ ▀█▄ █ Joined: April 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,949 Reputation: 4941 Power: 302	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. I think they are more along the lines of trying to outline advancements. If you look at the timeline and changes from 3.1 to Windows 95, as well as performance gained, security, features, productivity, its practically un-measurable. I would think that is the method to their madness behind their claim. XBOX Live Gamertag: kcnychief

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #24
muzikool Act your wage. Joined: December 2001 Location: Texas, USA Reputation: Yes, please. Posts: 7,626 Reputation: 2900 Power: 229	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by kcnychief I think they are more along the lines of trying to outline advancements. If you look at the timeline and changes from 3.1 to Windows 95, as well as performance gained, security, features, productivity, its practically un-measurable. I would think that is the method to their madness behind their claim. I agree it is practically unmeasureable. That's why my expectation were so high for Vista. Microsoft put my expectations where they were, and now I am doubting them. Can you blame me?

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #25
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by muzikool It's marketing-speak to compare your product to your competitors' ... but to compare it to your own? ...is still marketing-speak. At the end of the day, the goal of product marketing is to sell as many copies as possible. They can do that by comparing Vista to OS X or Linux, but the rate at which people are "switching" is not high enough compared to the number of people who are running Win9x in this day and age because they think it's "good enough." Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself. There are people who still run Win98 today. There are corporations that still run Win2k. The job of marketing is to convince these prospective customers to upgrade; hence the comparisons made to older versions of Windows rather than to the competition. http://kunal.kundaje.net

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December 9th, 2005	Top \| #26
muzikool Act your wage. Joined: December 2001 Location: Texas, USA Reputation: Yes, please. Posts: 7,626 Reputation: 2900 Power: 229	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by NetRyder Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself. I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point.

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #27
kcnychief █▄█ ▀█▄ █ Joined: April 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,949 Reputation: 4941 Power: 302	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by NetRyder ...is still marketing-speak. At the end of the day, the goal of product marketing is to sell as many copies as possible. They can do that by comparing Vista to OS X or Linux, but the rate at which people are "switching" is not high enough compared to the number of people who are running Win9x in this day and age because it's "good enough." Believe it or not, Microsoft's worst enemy in the OS space is still itself. There are people who still run Win98 today. There are corporations that still run Win2k. The job of marketing is to convince these prospective customers to upgrade; hence the comparisons made to older versions of Windows rather than to the competition. Very good point XBOX Live Gamertag: kcnychief

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #28
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by muzikool I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point. If you ask me for my honest opinion, I'd say there are enough reasons to justify an upgrade from XP to Vista for home users and corporate customers alike, although I completely understand that the uptake in the corporate space is going to be slower because of the extensive testing that needs to be done before a large-scale rollout. Since I'm not part of product marketing, I won't make any "best thing since sliced bread" claims, but I really do believe that there is still something in it for everybody. XP's silver bullet over 9x was massively improved stability and reliability. Vista has several things going for it too that make it a worthwhile upgrade, in my opinion. But again, in the end, it depends on what you expect and want from it. http://kunal.kundaje.net

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #29
Electronic Punk The Last High Joined: December 2001 Location: London Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 51 Reputation: 3652 Power: 346	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. rubs hands together

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #30
Grandmaster Electronica Addict Joined: February 2002 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 10,574 Reputation: 2960 Power: 257	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by muzikool I completely agree with you. Like I just posted, it's Microsoft's fault that my expectations for Vista are so high. With every seemingly negative report I get more doubtful about Vista surpassing XP by leaps and bounds. I can't claim to be right about this until we have Vista next year ... I'm just expressing my perspective at this point. Like Kunal pointed out everyone will have their own expectations of what "better than 3.1 to win9x" means. So your post is only stating the obvious. Sure there are negative reports, but have you read the positive ones? I agree, it's too early to make final judgements, but I guess it's in my nature to be more optimistic.

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #31
kcnychief █▄█ ▀█▄ █ Joined: April 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,949 Reputation: 4941 Power: 302	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. haha, best thing since slided bread, I love it I think the corporate world will be slower to upgrade than normal consumers, but that is the same for most. Only now are companies thinking about, let alone migrating to Server 2K3. In regards to XP, I can't think of any companies that have 100% made the switch yet. Also to be mentioned, alot of the upgrade requires staffing and down time from supporting other issues. For example, you can't blanket upgrade the entire company if you are pushing out new applications, dealing with viruses, training employees/clients on new versions, etc. I have to follow our OSNN father EP, and say... rubs hands together XBOX Live Gamertag: kcnychief

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #32
muzikool Act your wage. Joined: December 2001 Location: Texas, USA Reputation: Yes, please. Posts: 7,626 Reputation: 2900 Power: 229	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. High expectations are always a bad idea and it's my fault for having them, though I didn't plant them artificially. I am generally optimistic, but I guess this is a case of allowing the media to guide my opinion of how things are going. Without getting specific, it reminds me of the Iraqi war. For the record I do believe Vista will be worth the upgrade from XP.

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #33
kcnychief █▄█ ▀█▄ █ Joined: April 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,949 Reputation: 4941 Power: 302	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. I wouldn't say you are at fault, we are led to have high expectations from the media and what the company, in this case Microsoft, pimps out about their product. The real test is to see how let down, if at all, you will be when it comes out to market and how you deal with it Personally, I'm never happy, but that's why I love being a "geek", because I always want to learn, I always want more, and until I stop getting more, I'm gonna keep on keepin' on XBOX Live Gamertag: kcnychief

December 9th, 2005	Top \| #34
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by kcnychief Personally, I'm never happy, but that's why I love being a "geek", because I always want to learn, I always want more, and until I stop getting more, I'm gonna keep on keepin' on Of course. Vista is not going to be the be-all end-all of operating systems (don't let product marketing or the media fool you into believing that if they ever try!). But we're going to have new stuff to play with - new apps included that didn't exist in XP, improvements to those that already exist. Things that didn't work like we wanted them to in XP will work better, if not just the way we want them to. Nicer UI, tighter security, improved reliability (look up TxF) etc. At the same time, there's always going to be room for improvement, there are always going to be things that we won't like, things that won't work like we want them to. That's the case with every OS. It gives us something to look forward to - in this case, that something will be Blackcomb. http://kunal.kundaje.net

December 15th, 2005	Top \| #35
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Another update - Build 5270 is apparently the Dec CTP and will possibly be released on Monday. Perfect timing! Sources at Microsoft have told me that the eagerly-awaited December Community Technical Preview (CTP) build of Windows Vista will be delivered to beta testers on Monday. According to my sources, the CTP is build 5270 (5270.x86fre.winmain_idx03.051212-1830). In various meetings with the Windows Vista team last week, I was told on the record that the December CTP would be build 5276 "give or take one build." I was shown both builds 5270 and 5276 at the time. Microsoft recently altered its delivery schedule for Windows Vista to focus more on CTP builds, which could arrive as often as once every month, and less on major beta milestones. The company had originally planned to ship a public preview version of Windows Vista Beta 2 to the public by the end of 2005, but that preview will likely be based on a future CTP build and will arrive in the first half of 2006 instead. Earlier this month, Microsoft promised two Vista deliverables for December. The first, the December CTP, is a dramatic improvement over previous CTPs and includes many new features. In late December, Microsoft will ship internally a feature-complete build of Windows Vista. That build will form the basis for the next CTP, due in January of February 2006. After that, the company will focus solely on bug fixes and fit and finish issues, and will not add any more major new features to the product. http://www.windowsitpro.com/windowsp...ott_48774.html http://kunal.kundaje.net

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December 15th, 2005	Top \| #36
Electronic Punk The Last High Joined: December 2001 Location: London Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 51 Reputation: 3652 Power: 346	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Whats so good about monday?

December 15th, 2005	Top \| #37
kcnychief █▄█ ▀█▄ █ Joined: April 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 16,949 Reputation: 4941 Power: 302	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by Electronic Punk Whats so good about monday? He will be done with finals, silly man! No school = more time for Beta testing and blogging XBOX Live Gamertag: kcnychief

December 15th, 2005	Top \| #38
Electronic Punk The Last High Joined: December 2001 Location: London Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 51 Reputation: 3652 Power: 346	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. I let everything get in the way with my education and I turned out ok? Seriously tho, good luck with your exams (?)!

December 15th, 2005	Top \| #39
Grandmaster Electronica Addict Joined: February 2002 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 10,574 Reputation: 2960 Power: 257	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Originally Posted by kcnychief He will be done with finals, silly man! No school = more time for Beta testing and blogging Indeed. Feckers should make it public already! And yes I am aware that I can get ahold of it via other methods, I'd rather not.

December 15th, 2005	Top \| #40
NetRyder Tech Junkie Joined: April 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 13,256 Reputation: 4260 Power: 294	Re: [Vista] December CTP coming; Vista UI changes. Omar, I think it'll be worth the wait. Every CTP has been getting progressively better. And yes, the Chief is right about the reason for Monday being the perfect day. Friday = end of finals, tired as hell...go to sleep. Saturday = move to a new room, pack stuff for the trip. Sunday = fly to NYC, reach at night. Monday = new CTP! Originally Posted by Electronic Punk I let everything get in the way with my education and I turned out ok? I let lots of things come in the way of academics...beta testing an OS is just not one of them. http://kunal.kundaje.net