War on Iraq

[Mubbers]

A good post there mbunny, plenty to talk about.

I'll go through backwards if I may.

Hopefully I can lay the 9/11 analogy to rest as still I feel I'm being mis-interpreted. I made this analogy to pose the question what does it take to stir a pacifist to action? When do losses become unacceptable and action necessary? I believe this question has been answered. If I posed the question in a confusing way then I apologise.

Moving on. The thrust of your post is how do we deal with Islamic terrorism?

You may be right. We may be untactful and selfish in our dealings with the world. Armed conflict certainly will enrage them.

However I again point out that 9/11 occurred before the US took to arms. So I don't think doing nothing is the right thing to do.

The reason Islamic terrorists are pissed are because of the sanctions on most Islamic countries or lack of assistance and the lack of tact when dealing with their religion.

Is this a justification for terrorist activity? No it's rubbish, not from you, coz I've heard this countless times before. My opinion of it is this:

Sanctions - Incurred if you're in breach of UN resolutions. Stop breaching the resolutions.

Assistance - The US & Western countries provide massive amounts of aid to the 3rd-world including Muslim countries.

OPEC countries are fabulously wealthy. Why do they not support their Arab friends more? Take out the poverty with their huge oil wealth. If the west is ignoring the East then they most definitely have the resources internally to sort this out.

Lack of Tact - Christians are persecuted around the world in Muslim countries. In Burma Chrisitianity is forbidden and Christians are frequently imprisioned, tortured and executed because of their religion. In Zimbabwe a racist dictator persecutes white farmers and is ruining his country. However we do not see Global Christian Terrorism despite many provocations.

The Islamic Terrorists are a bunch of rowdy ****ers who have twisted the teachings of Islam to their own desires.

Yes they are but unlike any other terrorist groups(s) they have chosen to wage their war on the world. Most other terrorism to date has been internal. Global problem, global solution.

1945. Wait long enough and the Japanese would have surrendered. It just so happened the US were impatient. Japan was on the verge of defeat. The nukes were premature and not necessary.

The bombs dropped caused massive casualties and massive harm to future generations. This was definitely not a good thing. However a pacific war dragging itself from island to island through into 1946 and the eventual invasion of Japan by American forces would have cost even more life. The Americans had experienced the Japanese 'Samurai' culture and knew that the Japanese would literally fight to the last man, especially in their homeland. Would they have surrendered before this? No one will ever know for sure.

Again you bring up islamic terrorists. So by blowing up another Islamic state (despite what the US say, civilians WILL die) that will stop Islamic Terrorists?

Hey look... US just killed some of our brethren. Lets stop all our terrorist activities. A US led War will just merely strengthen their resolve. Violence begets Violence.

You are right. The circle of violence has clearly been demonstrated in Israel. Viscious and unending.

However doing nothing won't stop them. Look at your average ceasfire in Israel. Unless we are being serially misled it always ends with another bus being blown up. Then there are Israeli reprisals etc... The point here is that surely if they stopped blowing the buses and cafe's up then the circle would be broken and dialogue could start.

This seems to be the general nature of Islamic terrorsim. That there is no solution. They just hate us and that is that.

As I believe this I also believe that the only solution therefore is to meet them head on, find them and destroy them.

I would dearly like to be proven wrong.

Do not use terrorists links for a War. The first reason for this is. Unless a link is ACTUALLY evident then there is no smart reason for using that as a reason.

Well I haven't , not for the Iraqi war - again that's back to the 9/11 analogy which rather confused the issue

Lets start by not electing evangelistic presidents. Bill Clinton was a great president with a few blemishes (oh whoopti dooo... so he cheated on his wife... big WHOOP). Did we concentrate on his PEACE efforts? Yeah for like 3 days.

Well we do don't we! We also vote in Tony Blair and John Prescott and all the other bunch of corrupt and self serving numpties that go long with them. It sucks. I have no answer for this.

Well actually I do... :blink:

Unfortunately this doesn't detract from the fact that other countries do the same and this includes idiots like Saddam Hussein. We still have to deal with them.

Shame we couldn't have an intelligence test on our would be leaders. Could be a whole new generation of benchmarks. LeaderMark 2003.

Here here!

Thanks for a good answer to my earlier post

Mubbers

 

[Sazar]

mubbers...

don't mean to single you out... but like I have said before... it is rhetoric like that which you are putting forth that clouds the view of a more PRAGMATIC solution...

the question is not about whether saddam is a good guy or not or wwII or anything like that... it is the war on iraq and IMO it should not be waged for various reasons...

now... do not bring religion into this... it is a well known fact that more crimes against humanity have been incurred in the name of christianity than all the other religions combined...

concerning the helpnig hands... well you would be surprised @ the amount of aid given by countries like saudi arabia to their poorer brethren...

getting to your 9/11 analogy... I am a pragmatist and a pacifist... I am not one to jump to conclusions without evidence in hand... since this is not a solution... bush is playing on peoples emotions from 9/11 to push forth his plans... and his claims for a war on terrorism is the same... it just plays on nationalistic pride... and is not necessarily correct...

heck we are shown images of people buying drugs and SUV's and now people dling music as being labelled terrorists...

it is scary the number of things one can push forth in the name of 'security'

do not forget mc carthy he played on our inherent doubts and became a monster out of control and people believed him... its turning out to be the same here...

we have laws in america which allow one to be put in jail for merely having KNOWN a person who is now a terrorist... whether he washed the guys car or was the gardner or any other thing... no matter how innocent... he can be held w/o any other burden of proof...

beyond that the secrecy act... no need for evidence... just say you have 'secret' info and BLAM you have the right to hold w/o trial for years in some cases... a potentially innocent man...

this is not the kind of government I subscribe to... in the end it is our inherent fears within that end up causing the most damage and there is no need for us to fall down this path...

 

[Sazar]

oh... an article I thought people might find most amusing... and interesting...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/index.html

 

[Mubbers]

Hey dude I don't mind being singled out!!

Infact one is rather putting ones head 'above the parapet' when posting on this thread

'sides I'm changing my name to 'George' as soon as I get home to my wife 2 kids and my darling SUV!!!

Granted this is nonsense and propoganda at it's worst.

I get the feeling that in the USA you are being subject to intolerable amounts of pro-war propoganda??? In the UK we are not, so my posts' are posted straight from the heart and hopefully not modified by TV or whatever. In fact I would say UK coverage of this whole affair has been decidedly anti-war and sceptical of US/UK motives.

I therefore hope that what I say is not rhetoric, at least not any more so than others posting here, whatever side they may be supporting.

As far as bringing religion into it - two wrongs do not make a right. Or rather just because Christianity has/was/is bad it does not mean that we are excluded from talking about the wrongs comitted in the name of Islam.

I am an athiest. This decision I made years ago because of all the wrongs comitted in the name of all religions. Because I feel myself to be neutral in this aspect (religion) I do not feel it is a subject to be afraid of.

Which brings me to my last point...

Oddly I find myself agreeing with everything you have said

Mubbers

 

[Mubbers]

A good link Sazar. Similar in a fashion to the foolsih mess over the rehashed/plagerised article presented by our government a few weeks back preporting to be new information etc...

Mistakes have been made.

Opens an interesting line of debate though. Clearly we have made errors in the gathering of some evidence. Some would say that because of this our case against Iraq is flawed and we should persue them no longer. This of course is similar to those who also say that Iraqs failure to comply is reason for us to go in!



Which brings me to something that mbunny hinted at.

We should be asking more of our politicians and leaders. Much, much, more.

Whatever your views on Iraq etc... we have been let down by them countless times. Everywhere you look these days in every profession it's all about qualification and comptence. Almost all of our politicans today in th UK are either failed business men or have never done anything other than politics. There is certainly no qualification required to be a politician. Heck even football managers in the UK have to qualify now!

If we are really to bring ourselves into a better world then we the public must demand more from them.

This appplies the world over and not just in the UK!

Mubbers

 

[Geffy]

Originally posted by Mubbers
Sanctions - Incurred if you're in breach of UN resolutions. Stop breaching the resolutions.

So can you explain why Israel is still being helped by the US?
No sanctions have been imposed on them?
Why because the US has a terrible case of double standards for politically friendly and politcally hostile nations, yet this should not exist.

If you are not sure what I am refering to, then it is the UN resolution stating that Israel is to return the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians and halt their occupation. Have they done this... No and they havent been doing this for 30 years, thats longer than Saddam has been flouting UN Resolutions and Sanctions.

 

[Sazar]

Originally posted by Geffy
So can you explain why Israel is still being helped by the US?
No sanctions have been imposed on them?
Why because the US has a terrible case of double standards for politically friendly and politcally hostile nations, yet this should not exist.

If you are not sure what I am refering to, then it is the UN resolution stating that Israel is to return the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians and halt their occupation. Have they done this... No and they havent been doing this for 30 years, thats longer than Saddam has been flouting UN Resolutions and Sanctions.

unfortunately there are no iraqis in congress over here else I am sure iraq would get similar protection...

 

[ZipTriX]

So you believe "the CIA, FBI and the majority of political leaders" when they say there is no link between Al Queda and Iraq.

You have accepted what they say as the truth.

Good.

So when the same people tell you that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, naturally you also believe that too?

There is NO proof that Iraq has WMD.

What facts? No one in this thread has presented any facts that constitute a credible argument against enforcing resolution 1441. Why was 1441 presented and passed? Because the entire UN security council believed that Iraq posesses WOMD and that it needs to be disarmed.

The only people looking for facts are the Weapons Inspectors and they are being hampered in their efforts at every turn. There can only be two reasons for this: a) Iraq has WOMD they are trying to conceal or Saddam Hussein wants a war with the US / Britain.

I don't know which is more alarming.

Mubbers

The UN suspects that Iraq may have WMD, but again there is no solid evidence just speculation.

I mean it was the americans that have made him into the bad guy, he as an ally of the US until he went to get repayment for the Iraq-Iran war loans that were given out to Kuwait and others. The americans claimed to "not be officially interested" then he invaded Kuwait and the US went against him, in his mind the US are traitors.

I wish people would learn that Americans had nothing to do with this. It was our political leaders. There is a difference when stating "Americans" and "American leaders". Geffy, Bush is not the only one urging for war. Look at your own prime minister. "Americans this and Americans that." Wrong statement to use, when the word American shouldn't be used at all, unless with the word "leaders".

Saddam will never disarm or he will never reveal proof that he has no WOMD.

He is disarming. The missiles he is destroying are against the UN resolution, therefore according to the UN he is disarming.

Clearly an assassination would be pointless as the structure and family would remain.

There is a US law or international law stating that assassinations are not permitted. That is the reason that Saddam was not killed the first time.

1) A careful planned war to capture/kill the leaders and destroy the material of the current Iraqi regime. With a victory won and allied troops in place a careful transition to democracy can be achieved.

That was the plan of the first Gulf War. It failed.

2) Sponsor a revolution by the Iraqi people, probably lead by the Kurds in the north. Simpley put this would be a bloodbath. Just like any civil war. Like our, like yours and like the Balkans.

We are trying that now, by dropping information urging the Iraqi people to stand together against Saddam. It has yet to succeed.

3) Continue to plough on with pointless Inspections and pseudo-diplomacy. Let his regime continue to be a threat to world stability and a source (real or imagined) of state sponsored terrorism and WOMD.

This would be the best, since it will provide evidence that Iraq has WMD, and therefore would be an excuse to attack. But since there is no solid evidence of WMD in Iraq, you must allow the inspectors to find it.

They just hate us and that is that

There is a reason they hate us. Bush holds a side for Isreal, despite what Sharon does. Sharon is just as guilty has Arafat, when it comings to attacking the other.

A note on religion.....it's a joke.

Last, the US is full of corruption. Isreal should be under attack from the UN the way Iraq has. Cheney said something along the lines of "We must go to war because we have to many troops over there. Either go to war or start moving the troops". It feels that Bush just wants to go to war since we have close to 300k troops in the Middle East.

Mubbers, since you are so hell bent about Iraq having WMD, why have you yet to say anything about North Korea? They have a nuclear generator. They have fired missiles over Japan. They are disobeying resolutions also. What about Iran? Why have you said nothing about them? France has given Iran uranium, and they have yet to scrutinized. Iran is disobeying Un resolution, also. So why is all the blame aimed at Saddam? In the last 12 years, he has to pose a threat like North Korea has. Bush and Blair are just asking for attacks performed on the lands of the countries they rule. Attacking Iraq will create massive alienation and hostility between allies.

In my opinion with all the double standards going on, the "Axis of Evil" right now should be the US, Britain and Isreal.

 

[XP Abuser]

Fact alqueida hates jews more than anyone that is why palestinians and muslims sympaphise with them. taking there land that is not rightfully theres. and has the support from america which is kinda anal. i say build a wall there call it truce and everyone gets on with their thing.

i know id be pissed with outsiders coming and taking over my Country ----> thats called an invasion, which equates to war

NB: i do not condone suicide bombing

 

[Sazar]

Originally posted by XP Abuser
Fact alqueida hates jews more than anyone that is why palestinians and muslims sympaphise with them. taking there land that is not rightfully theres. and has the support from america which is kinda anal. i say build a wall there call it truce and everyone gets on with their thing.

i know id be pissed with outsiders coming and taking over my Country ----> thats called an invasion, which equates to war

NB: i do not condone suicide bombing

blame the british then... its their fault lol...

the israeli's technically 'bought' the land... but then thats like me buying a chunk of land in the us and making my own country there...

 

[XP Abuser]

al i can say is

religion = is a cause for war

 

[Geffy]

peoples beliefs are the cause, and beliefs are hard to change

 

[PlagueWielder]

I live in Israel and I can here a lot of planes flying over.

 

[Sazar]

Originally posted by SmokingWeed3000
I live in Israel and I can here a lot of planes flying over.

I live in tampa and I can here lots of planes flying over...

 

[Geffy]

Originally posted by Sazar
I live in tampa and I can here lots of planes flying over...

I live in Manchester and I can hear lots of planes and trains passing by

 

[mbunny]

There is a US law or international law stating that assassinations are not permitted. That is the reason that Saddam was not killed the first time.

Anyone remember the public approval by congress of the covert operation to assassinate Saddam?

Religion is not a joke. Religion leads to many good things. However, there are the corrupt and just plain stupid who use religion as their region to start throwing things at people.

North Korea didn't shoot it OVER Japan did it??? I thought they shot it into the sea between NK and J???

 

[Sazar]

if I wanted to go to congress and say the pope is a terrorist and portray him as such with propaganda public opinion would support that too... it all depends how you word the polls et al...

it is not an indication of anything...

 

[ZipTriX]

Originally posted by mbunny
Anyone remember the public approval by congress of the covert operation to assassinate Saddam?

I do. Had friends in the military that went to Desert Storm.

Religion is not a joke. Religion leads to many good things. However, there are the corrupt and just plain stupid who use religion as their region to start throwing things at people.

Religion is not what leads to many good things. It is faith. You don't need a church, pope, or book to dictate how to believe. In the US, religion and politics are becoming "one" rather than being seperate. Why were the priests never arrested, convicted and prisioned for molesting kids? That is why I consider religion a joke.

North Korea didn't shoot it OVER Japan did it??? I thought they shot it into the sea between NK and J???

From what I heard, on 3 different new sources from different countries, North Korea shot 1 over Japan and another into the ocean.

 

[Mubbers]

Originally posted by Geffy
So can you explain why Israel is still being helped by the US?
No sanctions have been imposed on them?
Why because the US has a terrible case of double standards for politically friendly and politcally hostile nations, yet this should not exist.

If you are not sure what I am refering to, then it is the UN resolution stating that Israel is to return the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinians and halt their occupation. Have they done this... No and they havent been doing this for 30 years, thats longer than Saddam has been flouting UN Resolutions and Sanctions.

I know exactly what you are referring to, some helpful chap posted the entire resolution on a forum not so far from here...

I agree the standards imparted by the US but more so the UN do seem somewhat 'flexible'.

However I'd like to point out a few of key differences that I think shed light on why we have two diverese outcomes:

1) The Israeli's are friends of the US and are not threatening death and destruction on the US/West etc..

2) They have WOMD (don't they?) yet appear unlikely to ever use them or proliferate them unless first attacked in a similar fashion.

3) The UN resolution you posted (if correct) called for the mutual respect of everyones borders and sovereignty. Clearly with terrorist bombings here and Israeli incursions there this has not happened.

4) Democracy within the US prevents them from acting against Israel. This is the same democracy you would prpabably like to see stopping the war.

You cannot have it both ways.

Mubbers

 

[Mubbers]

Originally posted by Iceman
really glad I dropped out of this stupid arguement awhile back.

mubbers your so hell bent on us going to war then join up and serve your country.

I served for 12 years, I don't regret one minute of it, but at same time I have no desire to be a muppet for some asswipe trying to get his favorable points up.

my last post in this thread, unless I get flamed. then I shall open the can.

Well that's not true.

It is true I have a hawkish view on the situation but I am not hellbent on war. What I am hell bent on is countering some of the fervent anti-American and anti-British crap that has so far been posted.

If the title of this thread was: War on Iraq but please don't disagree with Dealer/Iceman/ziptrix or have your own point of view then maybe I wouldn't be posting.

By trying to debate this issue quite obviously someone has to take the other side an test the strength of the arguments put down by them.

It is clear that in many cases minds are set. Some believe Iraq has WOMD and others don't. No convincing either way.

It saddens me that you appear to be implying that there is only one valid argument. Yours.

Mubbers

P.S. I did try and join up, alas I wasn't good enough at maths for the RAF.