[US politics] Appeals court denies parents' request to rehear Schiavo case

[melon]

it's up to whoever loves this girl to protect her when they think she needs that protection

That's not how the law works. After all, all those "Defense of Marriage" acts don't give a rat's ass about "love" either.

Melon

 

[Perris Calderon]

the law wouldn't stop me from protecting my child

would it stop you?

 

[melon]

the law wouldn't stop me from protecting my child

would it stop you?

Unless you want to do something illegal, there's a limit to what can be done when your child marries. Parents, essentially, become legal strangers.

Melon

 

[Perris Calderon]

If I beleive the state is about to murder my inoccent child, they would need to take my life before the would have the chance to take my child's...the law would hold no quarter.

how about you?

 

[melon]

I can't think of a reasonable situation where I'd have to do that. If my child got into an accident and ended up in a state similar to Terri Shiavo? I'd listen to the scientific evidence. I think it is cruel to keep her alive like this. It isn't as if those who want her to die are cruel "baby killers." I think people, all around, genuinely care. It's how one wishes to extend that compassion that's debateable right now.

The two previous famous cases involving severely brain damaged individuals were Karen Ann Quinlan and Nancy Cruzan. In both instances, it was the parents who went to court to get permission to have their child die, both of whom were unmarried.

Melon

 

[Perris Calderon]

I can think of quite a few

for instance, if I thought my child was alive and struggling to live, but her husband wanted to stop the nourishment that she needed to survive.

that would be an obvious example

 

[melon]

The thing is, I'm very scientifically motivated. I'm aware of the science. I'm aware of how people in persistent vegetative states can be very misleading. Personally, this is one of those instances where I think euthanasia should be legal. I don't think I could watch anyone starve to death, even if I knew it was humane. 2000 years ago, we didn't have life support, so people died. That's the perspective religion speaks from. Terri would have died 15 years ago, had it not been for life support.

I don't blame her parents for doing what they are doing. I just respectfully disagree with their reasoning behind trying to keep her alive.

Melon

 

[Evil Marge]

I don't blame her parents for doing what they are doing. I just respectfully disagree with their reasoning behind trying to keep her alive.

Melon

I agree with you

 

[VenomXt]

was alive and struggling to live,

SHE IS NOT STRUGGLING TO LIVE~ she has been the same way for 15 years.

 

[Evil Marge]

SHE IS NOT STRUGGLING TO LIVE~ she has been the same way for 15 years.

She's not exactly "living" and enjoying life is she?

 

[Sazar]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html

15 years being braindead. I think its cruel to not.

Opinions?

Why is it cruel?

 

[falconguard]

Sazar,

My wife is a Nurse and she works in a Dialysis center. I have seen patients with a good quality of life, get their treatments and be functioning human beings in society. I have also seen patients who are in the same state, get dialysis treatments and be totally unaware, of what is going on. There is and remains a quality of life, in cases like this her remaining days will be spent in the same condition. To extend this would bring a quantity to life, but not a quality. She has been in this condition for 15 years, if she would have recovered she would have done it in the first 5 years of her condition. This is not starvatation as we know it, just like in dialysis the body would begin to shut down and the death would be peaceful. I know becuase my grandmother passed away, this time last year. She chose to stop dialysis, because her pain was too much, she died peacefully.

 

[skizo]

The husband says that's what she wanted, the dr. thinks that's what she would have wanted, and she's brain dead. ffs, what is keeping that feeding tube gonna do except run up the hospital bills some more? NOTHING.

but that's just my two pennies...

 

[falconguard]

The parent's case is about to become moot
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7283607/

 

[Perris Calderon]

SHE IS NOT STRUGGLING TO LIVE~ she has been the same way for 15 years.

you guys miss the point...I agree with you, I don't think she's struggling to survive...I think she's dead too....I think god has her.

it's her parents that think she's struggling to live not me.

her parents happen to think she's alive, that she's neither dead nor suffering...they belive she's struggling to survive.

who the hell are you to tell them they can't protect their little girl?

they want to feed their child...this is their decision... who the hell are you to tell them they can't?..and who the hell is her husband to tell them they can't?...if she's dead what the hell does he care?...if she's dead then she's dead and feeding her doesn't change that...WHAT IS HIS PROBLEM?

if she's alive, then she's alive, and starving her will be murder

why does anyone have a problem with her parents wanting to feed her?

I don't think the state should be subsidizing their effort, but I can't for the life of me understand why anyone has a problem with her parents wanting to feed their little girl who they think is struggling to survive

 

[rotjong]

The husband says that's what she wanted, the dr. thinks that's what she would have wanted, and she's brain dead. ffs, what is keeping that feeding tube gonna do except run up the hospital bills some more? NOTHING.

but that's just my two pennies...

Keeping her alive keeps the parents hopes alive. Maybe she'll just get better, they think. She won't. She never will. But, to them, it's a dream. It's something they so very much wish for. But, it'll never happen.

For the politicians its just yet more chess games. Political posturing and gain and hell, they'll gain respect from their constituents. President Bush supposedly won the election all because of his views on abortion and such from the religious people, right? Why can't other politicians cash in on this?

For the Christian groups, the Lifers, the Anti-Death, etc, it's a perfect way for them to market and publicize their views in a form that the news media will readily and insanely over-publicize. How often do all these groups get the chance to shove their agenda down the entire U.S. populations throat? Well, they are getting it now and the politicians are on the same side at this point. Why look not take it while they've got it?

Personally, I see far more downsides to this entire situation than a positive influence.

1. States' Rights are being restricted by the Federal government in this case. Choices like this have always been a State's decision. It should remain as such or we once and for all create a Federal guideline on death/euthenasia in cases like this. This cannot just become a free-for-all everytime a case takes place.
2. A Governor [Good 'ol Jeb] overstepped his bounds and got involved in a case he shouldn't have, IMO. Maybe he's trying to be more like his brother or maybe he just likes the controversy. He's great at being Governor in a state in utter chaos. "Missing" foster children, what I term Chadgate, etc. Great track record. Of course this doesn't reflect upon Jeb specifically but it was all under his watch.
3. The Judiciary is being absolutely ignored and they are trying to steamroll them. How many times has this case been before a court? In the last 8 years I think there were at least 14 cases in Florida courts and in each case the Court sided with the husband. The State Supreme Court sided with the husband. The U.S. Supreme Court on 4 occassions refused getting involved. A Federal Court ruled for the husband. Is the entire Judiciary now worthless and unecessary? Do they serve no purpose? Do they lack any power? They said NO over and over to the parents and all the other people trying to keep Schiavo brain-dead but "living". If the U.S. Supreme Court actually takes the case now and does anything other than say let Schiavo die then the entire Judicial branch of the U.S. has lost any value because it will have been tainted and fallen to pressure from other branches of the government and all checks and balances will have been lost. As it is I already believe the Legislative and Executive branches have overstepped their bounds.
4. The entire case right now is allowing Christian groups and all the related groups (ie Pro-Life, etc) to try and gain yet more foothold in American politics. There is a separation between Church and State. This doesn't mean a politician cannot be religious however I do not want my government ruled by the Bible and slowly this is happening and this case alone will push it even further. I respect and support religious freedom but I will not tolerate the Church becoming part of the State. I am not an atheist, btw, but neither do I subscribe to any set religion and my parents gave me chance to grow up and form my own opinions and beliefs rather than be indoctrinated. They were both religious growing up but of different religious backgrounds.

I say let the suffering end. I'm not even referring to Schiavo's suffering because I don't think she is. I'm referring to the parents and the husband and her siblings. It's time the parents accepted the reality of the matter and once she is "officially" dead then they can begin to accept things and move on with their lives.

Some may say that I'm cruel but I don't see it as such. It's a very personal decision to make when something like this involves you. And, the law states the husband has the decision and not the parents. That's how it is... accept it. People who don't like it or who have parents who don't want this to ever happen... There is an easy solution don't get married.

rotjong

 

[Perris Calderon]

how will her husband and her siblings and her parents suffer less for starving this girl to death?

those that think she's dead won't suffer less, in their minds, she's dead allready

those that think she's alive will surely suffer more.

whatever time it is for her parents to accept or refuse what we think is the reality isn't up to me, or to you, or to her husband, or to the state.

 

[rotjong]

how will her husband and her siblings and her parents suffer less for starving this girl to death?

Her siblings sided with the husband. Her parents are against.

How will they suffer less? Sit next to a loved one who is alive on a feeding tube for awhile and watch how it is. Keep on doing it day after day after day. Keep on doing it. I've done it.

The suffering ending and the peace that can result in the end is the best thing. You'll ask how can I say peace? Very easily, you'll know that they have moved on and they are at peace now. If you are religious you'll be glad and they've gone to Heaven. Nonetheless, it's over. It's complete.

whatever time it is for her parents to accept or refuse what we think is the reality isn't up to me, or to you, or to her husband, or to the state.

I didn't say it was up to me. I didn't say I necessarily thought it was up to the State. However, the way our system works it IS up to the State and not the Church, Legistlative or Executive branches. The way the law works the husband gets precedence over the wishes of the parents and that's just how it is and it isn't new.

I still fail to see how a husband doesn't get a say. By your statements you are indirectly saying that only parents love someone enough to have a say? Do the parents own a child as property even when they are an adult? Is a child just chattel to whoever gave birth to them regardless of how old they are?

Sorry, I want my wife to make the decision before my parents and that's how it should be. My wife is my immediate family. My wife has more at stake. My wife is who I love out of complete choice and who is the person I picked to love. My parents as much as I love them are my parents and I am also obligated to love them. I had no choice about who I was born to. Once a child leaves the nest and makes a family of their own then the parents lose their all commanding control over a child. For me that's a simple concept.

Btw, I do respect your opinions. I just happen to vehemently disagree.

rotjong

 

[Perris Calderon]

Her siblings sided with the husband. Her parents are against.

How will they suffer less? Sit next to a loved one who is alive on a feeding tube for awhile and watch how it is. Keep on doing it day after day after day. Keep on doing it. I've done it.

The suffering ending and the peace that can result in the end is the best thing. You'll ask how can I say peace? Very easily, you'll know that they have moved on and they are at peace now. If you are religious you'll be glad and they've gone to Heaven. Nonetheless, it's over. It's complete.



I didn't say it was up to me. I didn't say I necessarily thought it was up to the State. However, the way our system works it IS up to the State and not the Church, Legistlative or Executive branches. The way the law works the husband gets precedence over the wishes of the parents and that's just how it is and it isn't new.

I still fail to see how a husband doesn't get a say. By your statements you are indirectly saying that only parents love someone enough to have a say? Do the parents own a child as property even when they are an adult? Is a child just chattel to whoever gave birth to them regardless of how old they are?

Sorry, I want my wife to make the decision before my parents and that's how it should be. My wife is my immediate family. My wife has more at stake. My wife is who I love out of complete choice and who is the person I picked to love. My parents as much as I love them are my parents and I am also obligated to love them. I had no choice about who I was born to. Once a child leaves the nest and makes a family of their own then the parents lose their all commanding control over a child. For me that's a simple concept.

Btw, I do respect your opinions. I just happen to vehemently disagree.

rotjong

this is all academia, and we are all just discussing our respective opinons....I obviously dissagree with your opinion as well.

I happen to agree that this child is allready dead...I'm only telling you what I would be doing if I thought as these parents do.

I don't think anyone will change their respective minds on that point... however;

it wouldn't matter one stitch to me what you thought if you were my daughters husband, or what my other children thought if I thought she were alive

If I thought you, or her sisters wanted to murder her, (weather or not you thought it was murder), you would have to put a bulet through my heart before you or anyone would be able to do it.

I would be standing outside her door with shotgun to bare, and anyone that would come close would meet the maker they are so happy to send my child to.

what you think you'd be doing "in behalf" of my daughter who I think is struggling to live wouldn't matter a single bit.

I think this was an excellant discussion.

now we wait for this child to pass through and move forward.

 

[Sazar]

I think there has been a serious lack of common sense by the Democrats and Republicans taking this to congress and a serious lack of judgement by Jeb in taking on the judicial system for something as cut and dried as this case.

And Tom DeLay has once again shown the level's of douche-dom he is capable of while making completely implausible comments to pander to the religious right.

People have feelings for Terri and so be it. I think she deserves more dignity and privacy than she is being afforded right now.

She is brain-dead for all intents and purposes. There is no electrical activity, her cerebral cortex is non-existent, she is not cogniscent. There is, basically, nothing there from which to get better.

Her parents arguments are exaggerations at best, lies at worst as they seek to screw up the entire process for regular americans in the country with their crusade to save Terri.

Terri is in a PVS and there is nothing that is going to make her better that we have presently or in the near future. Not one thing.

I lived in Florida while this retarded soap opera played out and we have it playing out again.

Let Terri have her dignity and die in peace.

God bless and let's move on people.