To Vista or not ?

Cause no one wants XP 'N !

Consumers what their stuff to play out of the box.

I have seen a few boxed copies of Windows N, but that was a while a go and only in one shop. Consumers don't want it, therefore shops don't stock it
 
Cause no one wants XP 'N !

Consumers what their stuff to play out of the box.

I have seen a few boxed copies of Windows N, but that was a while a go and only in one shop. Consumers don't want it, therefore shops don't stock it

Exactly. Other corportations wanted Windows 'N. Look how Adobe has been bitching recently about Office 2007 having PDF support out of the box. It's made Microsoft offer that feature as an online download. So ultimately, it's more hassle for us.
 
I agree that these anti-trust laws can have an affect, but to be honest I have never seen a 'Windows N' package anywhere in the UK or even online, and I don't know anyone that has used one. I don't see any difference in the content of Windows now to what it was before these cases came to court, other than the fact that they now have a lot MORE stuff with them. Even XP couldn't play DVDs out of the box when it was released but Vista can now. I don't think these laws have really had much impact to consumers yet.

That's an entirely different issue all together.

Microsoft has provisions to accomodate such requests but system integrators and consumers have to want it.

It costs MORE for integrators to go ahead and put different things in, so you'll have more people sticking a complete package in the box than from multiple sources and stuff.

Microsoft also licenses and/or buys tech/companies and uses their IP. If they infringe, there are law-suits, many frivolous. However we are moving away from piracy to smaller companies getting upset that o/s's like Vista are not more vulnerable so that they can sell their products.

/me shrugs

The big fish always have larger targets painted on their backs.
 
ill simply point out ... Microsoft is an ENORMOUS entity ..which is probably a gazillion times larger than all the movie people put together with more money than any other corporation on the planet besides exxon ...so big in fact they are more or less considered a financial institution ...they could give a crap less about drm ..unless there was something definitely profitable ...or something egotistical at stake ..or both.

With this DRM madness ...it would be a PRIME Time for a flavor of Linux or even Apple ..or whomever ... to mass produce some cheap secure os with absolutely nothing added except the basic OS ..which everyone could then d/l their own plugins to their hearts content... or install the programs they wish to use ...

Then ..if someone else created an audio/video capture card with HDMI in/out and paired it with this os they would quickly capture the os market...
 
With this DRM madness ...it would be a PRIME Time for a flavor of Linux or even Apple ..or whomever ... to mass produce some cheap secure os with absolutely nothing added except the basic OS ..which everyone could then d/l their own plugins to their hearts content... or install the programs they wish to use ...

Then ..if someone else created an audio/video capture card with HDMI in/out and paired it with this os they would quickly capture the os market...
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the "N" editions of Windows created for the EU market had all the media elements, including Media Player removed from the OS. And we all know how that fared.

The simple fact is this - the average user is not concerned about all the politics and ideological issues that geeks on forums love to argue about. And the average user makes up a *much* larger fraction of the market. When these people turn on their computers and pop in a CD or DVD, they simply expect it to play. They're not interested, and often don't have the know-how to scour the web for third-party media players, codecs, plugins, and what-not.

This is exactly why Microsoft and Apple are the only two companies that are currently truly successful on the home desktop - they both provide all-in-one solutions that work, and that's what most people want. Forget about capturing the market - the "barebones" OS that you're talking about would quite simply fail.
 
Exactly right Kunal.

There is absolutely no economic reason for a system integrator to go the route of a bare-bones system.

More skus, more work, more money, less margins. It's just not a viable solution.

Linux will work because of the really low cost but you have to have an appropriately savvy user as well in the case of many distro's.
 
Well said Kunal and Saz. I have never even given thought to supporting or selling anything but Windows-based systems and there is no reason to. Every client I come in touch with wants an all-in-one solution and EVERYONE wants it to be easy. Windows-based solutions are proven to be both.
 
This is exactly why Microsoft and Apple are the only two companies that are currently truly successful on the home desktop - they both provide all-in-one solutions that work, and that's what most people want. Forget about capturing the market - the "barebones" OS that you're talking about would quite simply fail.

I think Apple has had a recent surge in popularity mainly due to the iPod, but I believe Linux was actually the #2 desktop OS for a while there. Off the top of my head, the latest numbers were something like 85% XP, 5% 2k or earlier, 6% Apple and 4% Linux.

Personally I think if Vista is actually successful at stopping or curbing piracy, it will bump Linux way up.

Seriously the "but you need to be a programmer to use Linux" argument is so far from true nowadays it isn't even funny. I haven't wrote any code since CS101 which was 10 years ago for me, yet I successfully use Gentoo as my primary OS and have done so for years.

If you can successfully search out and install drivers for your video card, you can run linux now.
 
Microsoft is an ENORMOUS entity ..which is probably a gazillion times larger than all the movie people put together with more money than any other corporation on the planet besides exxon ...so big in fact they are more or less considered a financial institution ...

Wrong - microsoft isn't even in the running.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2006/

With this DRM madness ...it would be a PRIME Time for a flavor of Linux or even Apple ..or whomever ... to mass produce some cheap secure os with absolutely nothing added except the basic OS

As stated above 99% of PC users won't build their own. Businesses with IT departments won't even build their own when it could save them 10's of millions annually.

Then ..if someone else created an audio/video capture card with HDMI in/out and paired it with this os they would quickly capture the os market...

It is illegal to build, sell or distributed products in the USA that circumvent copy protection. You can't buy taiwanese or chinese DVD players without DRM in the USA even though they are available in Asia. NOBODY will sell such cards because they would be shut down immediately.

The only way to beat DRM is to vote with your wallet. STOP buying all DRM protected products. Listen to the radio and watch TV for the next 6 months and the music and movie companies will be begging congress to repeal DRM.

But people are too stupid to organise so until you are willing to start pestering everyone you know to cut the DRM cord quit whining.

Music and Video are not gasoline or electricity. You can live without them.

BOYCOTT!
If you must buy video or music buy used media or from the $5 dumpsters at Walmart.

Only you can prevent DRM! (Picture smokey the bear icon here.)
 
I think Apple has had a recent surge in popularity mainly due to the iPod, but I believe Linux was actually the #2 desktop OS for a while there. Off the top of my head, the latest numbers were something like 85% XP, 5% 2k or earlier, 6% Apple and 4% Linux.

Personally I think if Vista is actually successful at stopping or curbing piracy, it will bump Linux way up.

Seriously the "but you need to be a programmer to use Linux" argument is so far from true nowadays it isn't even funny. I haven't wrote any code since CS101 which was 10 years ago for me, yet I successfully use Gentoo as my primary OS and have done so for years.

If you can successfully search out and install drivers for your video card, you can run linux now.

I aggree I have tried a few distro's and they install and are up and running easier then windows in some cases I was able to get sound video networking all installed from the start and was online in an instant with Linux , it is very easy now with mandrake and others along those lines ...
 
LeeJend, great post and great information.
 
It is illegal to build, sell or distributed products in the USA that circumvent copy protection.
youre right ... only for profit and there are loopholes around it ... if you sell the stuff ... but if you give it away without the added "bugs" that allow circumvention ...and later offer a d/l with this added vulnerability ...such as leak the info on how to do so ..then theoretically its all good.

the real point ... if you are using the work-around for copy protection to copy your own goods ..then you are breaking no laws.

As far as the microsux point you made ..good one ..but i was caught in another thought when writing that ... they are much bigger than the movie industry as a whole with influence in every which direction on everyday life.

music and video ... i really can't imagine not having it unless i was amish or a menadite ... which are perfectly good beliefs ..but not for me.
 
It's simple: If you don't like it then don't use it.
 
It's simple: If you don't like it then don't use it.

so what then? Don't watch digital tv? Don't own a camcorder? So what exactly do you expect us non-likers to do?

Unless you mean vista of course ..and yes ..i won't use it. I just try to make sure that anyone that asks about something like this that they can read into the entire picture and the direction vista takes them.
 
That's not my problem. I don't like the fact that I have to replace my toothbrush every six months and I believe they should be able to make one that lasts longer, but I still have to brush my teeth.

Doing what you do, you know the evolution of technology and you know you have to welcome the changes with open arms.

So yes, I'll stick to what I initially said: If you don't like it then don't use it. Period.
 
I've read through that piece before. There also happens to be a rebuttal of sorts that I encountered a few days ago.
http://www.fastsilicon.com/content/view/141/27/

It's a long article too. Feel free to read through it when you get the time, but here are some choice quotes from the conclusion.

The deeper this goes though (and the author does go on for several more pages, we sincerely suggest you read the article in it's entirety HERE) the further it strays from being a "Cost Analysis" of Vista, and more of an analysis of how utterly screwed up the whole arena of High Definition and Digital Rights Management happens to be. The author seems to be trying to assert that somehow Vista is the root of all of this, at least we think so. It's honestly hard to tell at times, as the overwhelming majority of the discussion in the article is about all of the complex interplay within the hardware industry, some aspects of which have little to do with Vista specifically, other than the fact that Vista machines may or may not be involved in the delivery of premium content.
Look, it's no secret that Microsoft, Intel, Sony and darn near every other hardware and software vendor on earth wants a piece of the HD and premium content pie. Nor is it a secret that the content industry is scared to death of anything they release not being "DRM Infected". The fact that the situation is a mess is less the fault of Vista, and more the fault of everyone involved. Microsoft Vista is sticking to the specifications and economic realities that currently exist, largely mandated by an industry it wants to be a part of. It's an industry that by anyone's estimation is headed for huge and unavoidable change. Are users rushing to watch BlueRay and HD-DVD movies, or streaming DRM infected content on their Vista desktops? It just doesn't look that way from this vantage point.
I'm still not sure what fault this is of Vista's, apart from Microsoft playing in the same pond everyone else in the industry is playing in.

Don't misunderstand us, this isn't a glowing-fan-boy-rendition of Vista-love. It's just that it's pretty obvious to us the situation regarding high definition content and so called premium content and the delivery mechanism involved are an industry wide issue. The author's less than clear implications (if you focus solely on the headline of his article) seem to be overwhelmingly pointing towards how content protection systems themselves are ultimately a detriment to all involved, and if that's the case, we wholeheartedly agree. The focus however does tend to drift away from a purely "let's look at the consumer" standpoint, to one only software and hardware engineers directly involved in the industries (or ones with too much evangelical free time on their hands) would even care about.

These are problems endemic to the industry as a whole, and ones that obviously rankles his (and admittedly our) purist views of how things should be. Regardless, in our opinion, focusing on Vista, even though much of the article actually didn't focus on Vista solely, sort of misses the larger point, and leads us to wonder "why the headline?" We simply assert that Vista's content protection mechanisms are merely a symptom of an industry gone haywire as a result of genuine fear as well as greed, and not the root cause of anything that wasn't already painfully wrong to start with.
This is exactly what I've been saying earlier in this thread too. :)
 
That's not my problem. I don't like the fact that I have to replace my toothbrush every six months and I believe they should be able to make one that lasts longer, but I still have to brush my teeth.

Doing what you do, you know the evolution of technology and you know you have to welcome the changes with open arms.

So yes, I'll stick to what I initially said: If you don't like it then don't use it. Period.


a toothbrush is a buck fifty. That isn't even a logical rebuttal. hell for the sake of ease and even amusement ..lets say 5 bucks.

at the price of a HDCP and now DRM enabled digital tv... (2000usd) then thats about 400 toothbrushes. Being that soon everyone MUST broadcast in digital HDTV ..and no longer will there be analog television ..that pretty much means YOU DONT OWN A TV ..nor do you own a computer ...or a telephone ...or a cellphone ...or cd's ...or dvd's ....

This actual convo can go on and on and on ..back and forth ..there are several good points to be made on both sides of the fence ... and the greatest one here of all is simple ....

It will eventually all be like this ... One brand will have their own specific DRM ..similar to Apple with there itunes/ipod setup. Microsoft has simply created ..or tried to create the "standard" DRM protocol ... which is what everyone has seemingly missed. With 90% of the world's population using Windows ...and microsoft being the standard on DRM ..that pretty much means whatever that board room decides you can watch / install / do on your pc . And with computers quickly becoming at home in the livingroom with everyday life ... your concept of AVOID IT is unreasonable.
 
My toothbrush cost $100.00, the heads cost $9.00 each. It adds up. Thank you.
 

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Also Hi EP and people. I found this place again while looking through a oooollllllldddd backup. I have filled over 10TB and was looking at my collection of antiques. Any bids on the 500Mhz Win 95 fix?
Any of the SP crew still out there?
Xie wrote on Electronic Punk's profile.
Impressed you have kept this alive this long EP! So many sites have come and gone. :(

Just did some crude math and I apparently joined almost 18yrs ago, how is that possible???
hello peeps... is been some time since i last came here.
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Rest in peace my friend, been trying to find you and finally did in the worst way imaginable.

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