To Vista or not ?

[j79zlr]

Its good to see someone other than myself who is very wary of the new trend in DRM.

I just hope that the mainstream public becomes aware of it and is up in arms against it before it is too late.

 

[Grandmaster]

I just hope that the mainstream public becomes aware of it and is up in arms against it before it is too late.

Yeah right...the average person doesn't even know what DRM is.

 

[Shamus MacNoob]

Vista is released so for that it is too late, but come on guys Vista is good!! right ?

No I think Vista has started something we dont need.

Quote:
So, what will happen if the Microsoft vision comes true?

* If you have recently bought a high-end sound card you may be surprised, since in Windows Vista you won’t be able to play any “protected content” due to the incompatibility of interfaces (S/PDIF).
* Significant loss of quality of the audio may be common due to the need to test every bit of streaming media for the use of “protected content”
* The idea of open-source drivers will be abandoned since the whole DRM thing is based on the fact that the content decrypting takes place in a “black box” and only a few selected corporations may have a look at it. Security through obscurity, that’s what it’s called. Open source stands in complete opposition to this concept.
* Removing any standards from the hardware world is one of the Microsoft goals. According to the Microsoft theory, each device will need to communicate with the operating system in a unique way in order for DRM work as required. This will enforce the incompatibility of the devices, killing the existing interface standards.
* Denial of Service attacks will be a common place. The new era of DoS attacks will be more harmful than ever before. This is connected with the tilt bits introduced in Windows Vista. The malicious code will be able to use the DRM restrictions in any suitable way and the detection of this activity will be almost impossible if not illegal (sic!) thanks to the infamous DMCA act that prohibits the use of any reverse engineering techniques used to either understand or break DRM.
* The stability of the devices will be decreased due to the fact that the devices will not only have to do their job but also “protect” (who? obviously not the user…) against the illegal use of the audio and video streams. This “protection” requires a lot of additional processing power and of course a lot of programmers man days. Who’s gonna pay for that? Of course us — the customers.
* Issuing the specification by Microsoft seems to be the first case in the history when the software producer dictates the hardware producers how their hardware should be designed and work. Seems dangerous, especially when we all realize the intentions of Microsoft. ​

Quote: DRM and freedom, or what says Richard Stallman and FSF

According to Stallman,

DRM is an example of a malicious feature - a feature designed to hurt the user of the software, and therefore, it’s something for which there can never be toleration.

Stallman is not the only person respected in the IT world who believes that DRM is pure evil. Another known DRM-fighter is John Walker, the author of the famous article “Digital imprimatur: How big brother and big media can put the Internet genie back in the bottle”. Walker compares the Digital imprimatur with DRM in the Internet and computing in general.

In Windows Vista it has been decided that the most restrictive version of DRM ever known will be implemented. If the Redmond dreams come true and the large hardware producers also decide to implement the DRM bits in their chipsets, it may lead to the situation in which we — the users, practically won’t be able to decide about our own software of legally purchased media. And this is actually only the beginning of what we can expect if a massive consumer protest against DRM does not begin. In the near future it may turn out that we will not be able to run any programs that violates one of the absurd software patents in the US or any kind of so-called intellectual property (just as if the ideas could have an owner!). And almost everything will be patented or “owner” in some way by that time.

I have a science-fiction vision of the IT underground, where the only hardware not tainted with DRM is made in China and using it is illegal in most of the “civilized” countries. And the only software that allows users to do anything they want with it is (also illegal) the GNU software, developed in basements by so-called “IT terrorists” — Linux kernel hackers, former Novell and Red Hat employees and sponsored by the Bin Laden of the IT — Mark Shuttleworth. Sounds ridiculous? Well, hopefully so. But I don’t think Microsoft and Apple would be protesting when this ridiculous and insane vision comes true…
​

 

[NetRyder]

Seems like the Linux gurus, led by Stallman of all people (haha!), have the ability to predict the future now. Notice how almost every one of those bullet points starts with "will be" - in other words, nothing has happened yet (Chicken Little syndrome?), but that won't stop the FUD machine from painting a gloomy picture of a world where big, bad Microsoft will watch everything you do and read your minds. Bring out the tinfoil hats!

This quote from Shamus' post is just classic:

I have a science-fiction vision of the IT underground, where the only hardware not tainted with DRM is made in China and using it is illegal in most of the “civilized” countries. And the only software that allows users to do anything they want with it is (also illegal) the GNU software, developed in basements by so-called “IT terrorists” — Linux kernel hackers, former Novell and Red Hat employees and sponsored by the Bin Laden of the IT — Mark Shuttleworth.

I can't believe someone would be able to read that and keep a straight face. Let's just say - if I were drinking something right now, I'd need a new keyboard.

If these people spent half the amount of time and effort that they use to spread FUD and organize pointless ideological rallies to work on making Linux a better OS instead, maybe more than five people would actually start using it at home.

Honestly, if you look at all of this from a purely practical perspective, you'll realize that if you don't use DRM content on XP today, your experience won't change with Vista at all. I'd like to hear from one person here who tried to play his/her bootlegged/ripped DivX movie or mp3 in Vista and failed. Facts please?

Here's the deal - the movie industry will NOT allow you to legally play hi-def content stored on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD media (with the ICT bit set) unless there is a sufficient layer or copy protection built into the system that's authorized to play it. Microsoft has included the capability to play this "protected content" should you choose to purchase it on your own volition. If Apple wants to allow its customers to play this content, they need to implement a strong protection scheme as well. With Linux...well, you probably won't get that choice anyway, even if you wanted it for some absurd reason. So, if you don't believe in supporting DRM, don't buy protected content. There's nothing stopping your non-protected content from playing. Where's the problem?

People really need to start looking at this from a rational and practical perspective rather than succumbing to all the baseless fear-mongering.

 

[Sazar]

People really need to start looking at this from a rational and practical perspective rather than succumbing to all the baseless fear-mongering.

.

If only that were the case.

I suppose we can dream

Fwiw, I have had more issues with Vista than you and derek seem to have had, but at the same time I have kind of been pushing the limits a little bit

 

[j79zlr]

Stop being so naive. If consumers did not put up with DRM it would not exist. If no one bought protected content or refused to put up with the ridiculous notion of dropping quality because of a number checks was not passed it would fail. MS could actually use its monopoly power for good for once and say they are not going to support it.

As for this comment:

"If these people spent half the amount of time and effort that they use to spread FUD and organize pointless ideological rallies to work on making Linux a better OS instead, maybe more than five people would actually start using it at home."

Who is spreading FUD now? Have you actually used a recent linux distro. The XGL effects are light years ahead of Vista and there are working drivers for your nVidia card too.

 

[Sazar]

Stop being so naive. If consumers did not put up with DRM it would not exist. If no one bought protected content or refused to put up with the ridiculous notion of dropping quality because of a number checks was not passed it would fail. MS could actually use its monopoly power for good for once and say they are not going to support it.

If people didn't pirate/steal IP, we would never have to worry about DRM.

Because they do and will continue to do so, we have to put up with DRM. There is nothing inherently wrong with DRM other than its implementation but who really gives a crap. Buy legit stuff and you're fine.

Starforce (or whatever its called) was a bad implementation of anti-piracy and has been essentially phased out gradually because of the reluctance of people to deal with issues that arise. If there is anywhere close to the same frequency of issues with DRM, you will see it phased out also.

As for this comment:

"If these people spent half the amount of time and effort that they use to spread FUD and organize pointless ideological rallies to work on making Linux a better OS instead, maybe more than five people would actually start using it at home."

Who is spreading FUD now? Have you actually used a recent linux distro. The XGL effects are light years ahead of Vista and there are working drivers for your nVidia card too.

:smoker:

Does anyone else notice the bitter-sweet irony here?

I am all for open source, but come on m8, your comments about Vista hardly seem to be those coming from a user of the RTM version. Sort of makes it even keeled in the point-less bashing department.

 

[Grandmaster]

As for this comment:

"If these people spent half the amount of time and effort that they use to spread FUD and organize pointless ideological rallies to work on making Linux a better OS instead, maybe more than five people would actually start using it at home."

Who is spreading FUD now? Have you actually used a recent linux distro. The XGL effects are light years ahead of Vista and there are working drivers for your nVidia card too.

Not much use if only 5 people care...

 

[j79zlr]

See thats the whole misconception about DRM. It is not about stopping piracy, never has been. It is about making the honest consumer pay multiple times for the same thing. The real end-game for the MPAA-RIAA is to make you pay-per-play, they are just easing you in to it.

 

[NetRyder]

Stop being so naive. If consumers did not put up with DRM it would not exist. If no one bought protected content or refused to put up with the ridiculous notion of dropping quality because of a number checks was not passed it would fail.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Regardless of what OS you use, you can refuse to purchase and support protected content. There's no correlation between the two things. Someone can be using Vista as their OS and have a media library full of only mp3's downloaded from BitTorrent - claiming that such a person is "supporting DRM" somehow is absurd. It's like saying buying an iPod supports DRM because it has the capability to also play back FairPlay protected media, in addition to those mp3's from BitTorrent.

Have you actually used a recent linux distro. The XGL effects are light years ahead of Vista and there are working drivers for your nVidia card too.

Yes, I do make it a point to keep up with the latest distros, and FWIW, I think Linux has made lots of progress in terms of overall usability in the last decade. But just like Vista isn't perfect, neither is Linux. They all have their fair share of issues, and people simply choose to use what fits their needs best. For some of us, that's Windows, and you, for some reason, simply can't seem to swallow that fact.

P.S. I have working Vista drivers for both my NVIDIA and ATI cards.

 

[NetRyder]

Not much use if only 5 people care...

Haha. Ouch.

 

[trainmaster77]

I can't believe someone would be able to read that and keep a straight face. Let's just say - if I were drinking something right now, I'd need a new keyboard.

Thats a good thing cause im sure it would be ultra-sweet Kool-Aid

Here's the deal - the movie industry will NOT allow you to legally play hi-def content stored on Blu-Ray or HD-DVD media (with the ICT bit set) unless there is a sufficient layer or copy protection built into the system that's authorized to play it.

You are legally allowed to make a copy of any license you purchase for safe keeping ..or for the sake of copying it ... so long as you don't sell it or profit from the copy. This is also to be done with reasonable amounts of cost incurred from the licensee ..with part of the initial cost paid by the licenser to the licensee for that very right to copy it. Why on earth do they make blank media? Its a bajillion dollar industry.

So reasonable cost is not going out to purchase another brand spankin new computer with a bajillion gigs of 9million mhz of ram along with a 1,000usd disc drive and 500usd more for a monitor only to be able to WATCH a movie on the computer.

People really need to start looking at this from a rational and practical perspective rather than succumbing to all the baseless fear-mongering.

I'm not knocking your beliefs ... even though i find them amusing and absurd. This "DRM" has the belief that EVERYONE breaks the law and therefore we must punish everyone first. Remember that somewhat important saying or belief ... ya know ..the one the good ol US of A is founded on ... illegal search and seizure ...oh no not exactly that one ..how about Innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Its utterly UNNECESSARY and ABSURD to imagine everyone having to go purchase BRAND NEW monitors capable of playing HDCP and DRM ..along with specific cables ..ect ect ..and there eventually will be NO WAY TO AVOID IT as long as people like you continue to put your heads in the sand and assume everything is just great while the whistle blowers .. are quite aware of whats going on ..and what is likely to happen are trying their damndest to thwart it.

Not everyone is as financially well off as many of us ..and 600 bucks for a tv is an ENORMOUS cost/investment. Can you imagine having to go pay 600 more dollars next year cause of DRM?

So ..if you have it your way ..i will no longer be able to copy my own discs and play them ...and if one happens to get scratched ..or even warps because of crap quality disc/plastic ..guess what .. i gotta go BUY ANOTHER ONE... when i already own the license to begin with. That being said ..i even paid for the right to copy it the first time ..so now ive paid for the same license twice and paid twice to never copy it ..even though i paid to have the right to copy it as many times as necessary the first time.

I don't think piracy is nearly as bad as what they project ... and if they think so ... i know more people that would never pay 30 bucks for a hddvd / blue ray movie anyway ..so at least if they purchase a copy of it on the media ... they still get a chunk of the profit ..either way.

I think the tides on all this copy protection , DRM, Intellectual Rights , patents ... are changing ... people are fed up with the katrillion billion trillion dollar lawsuits pinned on 8 year olds for having some lame crap clip of some song from a 20usd cd that only has 1 decent song on it which was chopped up from some song 10 years ago .. to make a 5 second ringtone ... or some john doe company in poe dunk wyoming that has a patent on the way the sun rises so in turn he owns the rights to the water ... all the plants ... all energy ... tanning beds, the beach .. and even gravity ..and if everyone doesnt pay him his royalties he will file suit and get 50googleillion dollars.

I realize that is a super exaggeration ..but it gets to the point.

all someone is gonna hve to do (im sure its more complicated than i imply here) is make some pci-e or pcmcia card with HDMI / DVI in and out ..which is capable of carrying video/audio in and out. they could have their own piggyback chips to circumvent the HDCP/DRM .... of course there would be those to use it for their financial benefit ...but people like me would have it just so i could watch whatever the hell i want ... have the ability to copy my discs ...make backups ..and not have someone ..which i paid ... tell me or control what i do ..or how i do something ..or even when i do it.

 

[Sazar]

See thats the whole misconception about DRM. It is not about stopping piracy, never has been. It is about making the honest consumer pay multiple times for the same thing. The real end-game for the MPAA-RIAA is to make you pay-per-play, they are just easing you in to it.

I think you are assuming that those pesky little things called anti-trust laws don't exist for your hypothesis to work.

If microsoft can't get away with some of its tactics, what makes you think that the MPAA and RIAA can do what they want, how they want?

 

[NetRyder]

Thats a good thing cause im sure it would be ultra-sweet Kool-Aid

First line of your post, and you resort to ad-hominem already? I find it amusing how people can't engage in a debate without getting personal. It's almost always a sureshot sign that the rest of your argument has no leg to stand on.

I'm not knocking your beliefs ... even though i find them amusing and absurd. This "DRM" has the belief that EVERYONE breaks the law and therefore we must punish everyone first. Remember that somewhat important saying or belief ... ya know ..the one the good ol US of A is founded on ... illegal search and seizure ...oh no not exactly that one ..how about Innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Its utterly UNNECESSARY and ABSURD to imagine everyone having to go purchase BRAND NEW monitors capable of playing HDCP and DRM ..along with specific cables ..ect ect ..and there eventually will be NO WAY TO AVOID IT as long as people like you continue to put your heads in the sand and assume everything is just great while the whistle blowers .. are quite aware of whats going on ..and what is likely to happen are trying their damndest to thwart it.

Not everyone is as financially well off as many of us ..and 600 bucks for a tv is an ENORMOUS cost/investment. Can you imagine having to go pay 600 more dollars next year cause of DRM?

So ..if you have it your way ..i will no longer be able to copy my own discs and play them ...and if one happens to get scratched ..or even warps because of crap quality disc/plastic ..guess what .. i gotta go BUY ANOTHER ONE... when i already own the license to begin with.

I don't think piracy is nearly as bad as what they project ... and if they think so ... i know more people that would never pay 30 bucks for a hddvd / blue ray movie anyway ..so at least if they purchase a copy of it on the media ... they still get a chunk of the profit ..either way.

First of all, I suggest that you go back and re-read my post, a little more carefully this time. Then tell me where I claimed to support DRM, or said it was good in any way.

Let me re-post this part, in particular, for you:

Regardless of what OS you use, you can refuse to purchase and support protected content. There's no correlation between the two things. Someone can be using Vista as their OS and have a media library full of only mp3's downloaded from BitTorrent - claiming that such a person is "supporting DRM" somehow is absurd. It's like saying buying an iPod supports DRM because it has the capability to also play back FairPlay protected media, in addition to those mp3's from BitTorrent.

FYI, I didn't need to purchase a $600 monitor to do anything in Vista that I could do in XP. I'm using the same flat-panel that I bought two years ago and was using with XP, and all my videos play just fine.

Sure, if I choose to purchase protected HD content, I'll need a new HDCP-compliant display to play it, but how does that matter to me? You mentioned sticking to XP as an alternative earlier. That doesn't change much. You don't get to play that protected content in XP, whereas Vista simply gives you the choice to do so if you want to. Again, where's the problem?

Your problem seems to be with DRM, in general, and you're somehow attributing all of it to Vista for some reason. It sounds to me like you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[j79zlr]

I think you are assuming that those pesky little things called anti-trust laws don't exist for your hypothesis to work.

If microsoft can't get away with some of its tactics, what makes you think that the MPAA and RIAA can do what they want, how they want?

Anti-trust laws are not enforced if you are large enough. Ask Microsoft, they are convicted monopolists and their illegal corporate activities have not been affected one bit.

 

[Electronic Punk]

Good discussion guys, makes for a good read. I have no problems with groups of people arguing their cases but lets just not make it personal!

 

[madmatt]

You two are so quick to blame Microsoft for implementing DRM. Did you ever stop to think that they were pressured to implement it? Pressured by movie studios, music labels, government?

 

[ray_gillespie]

Its good to see someone other than myself who is very wary of the new trend in DRM.

I just hope that the mainstream public becomes aware of it and is up in arms against it before it is too late.

There's an excellent article on this by Bill Thomson of the BBC, things like this are beginning to crop up which is a good sign.

At the moment I'm not affected by DRM as I bypass the copy protection on any protected CDs by using a high-tech hacking method and I don't buy anything in digital form at all. Ever. I have a whole stack of CDs that I bought from shops and the day I am forced to buy a copy-protected digital download of an album I want will be the day I set up my own music publishing company.

I think there are a lot of people like me who manage to get by without being affected by DRM but there will come a time when we are and that is when the real outcry will happen. I for one will NEVER have any DRM music on my computer. It's not like I even distribute it to anyone. I just like the freedom of knowing I can make my own mp3/aac CDs for my car CD player and put whatever music I want on whatever mp3 player I have without worrying about not being able to listen to music that I have already paid for once.

 

[Sazar]

Anti-trust laws are not enforced if you are large enough. Ask Microsoft, they are convicted monopolists and their illegal corporate activities have not been affected one bit.

They are fined and new legislation is implemented to prevent monopolies.

Ergo, the corporate activities have been affected, just look at the European scene vis-a-vis packages.

 

[ray_gillespie]

just look at the European scene vis-a-vis packages.

I agree that these anti-trust laws can have an affect, but to be honest I have never seen a 'Windows N' package anywhere in the UK or even online, and I don't know anyone that has used one. I don't see any difference in the content of Windows now to what it was before these cases came to court, other than the fact that they now have a lot MORE stuff with them. Even XP couldn't play DVDs out of the box when it was released but Vista can now. I don't think these laws have really had much impact to consumers yet.