[Politics Poll]Who will win?

Discussion in 'Green Room' started by Lee, Sep 1, 2004.

?

Who will be the Daddy?

Poll closed Oct 21, 2004.
  1. Kerry

    20 vote(s)
    36.4%
  2. Bush

    16 vote(s)
    29.1%
  3. They both suck, leave me alone!

    19 vote(s)
    34.5%
  1. Lee

    Lee OSNN Proxy

    Your opinions please Ladies and Gentlemen.
    It's an opinion, you don't have to be from 'The U.S.A.' to have one.
     
  2. NetRyder

    NetRyder Tech Junkie Folding Team

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    Well, someone's gotta win, so option 3 is out as far as I'm concerned.
    Option 2 - Erm, no thanks.
    That leaves me with option 1, so...

    With that said, I'm not an American citizen, so I don't really have a say in the form of a vote. Oh well, we'll see what happens...
     
  3. j79zlr

    j79zlr Glaanies script monkey Political User

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    It better be Bush or else we are in trouble, Kerry's tax the rich to death approach will slow the heavy investors and kill the economy. Just watch after this week when Bush is up 10-15 pts in the polls, the stock market will bounce up. Guaranteed. Bush's slowed the recession left by Clinton, survived a terrorist attack, war, and still has the Dow over 10,000, with the economy growing the fastest in 20 years.

    I don't really think it will be as close as everyone thinks. Bush by 15%. Dow will be 13,000 by next December.
     
  4. gonaads

    gonaads Beware the G-Man Political User Folding Team

    "Vote for me, I'll set you free... Ball of confusion"






    Anyone with half a brain, but not George Dubya. Please please not that dork again. I have some reservations on Kerry but he is a far cry better than the knucklehead in office now.
     
  5. rotjong

    rotjong Moderator

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    I like neither when it comes down to the reality of the situation. I registered as a Democrat when I was 18. That was over a decade ago. Right now I am truly embarrassed that I was ever a Democrat and sickened that Kerry was the best the party could produce. I will be switching to Independent. I truly feel that as an American there is no good decision that can be made this presidential election. I will, however, not be voting for Kerry.

    Kerry is a self-proclaimed war criminal and a person who once making his military service the focal point of his campaign then whined and complained like a child because people began stepping forward and questioning his actual service record . He has, essentially, called [groups of] veterans liars and war criminals. My father was a WWII and Korean War vet. I don't take Kerry's popularity strategies well because they are only for PR and he avoids the bad comments he made about Vietnam soldiers now that he is running for President. I don't know how any veteran could not take this as a slap in the face.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I find it unfortunate that I see too many people seeing the slanted news making Kerry out to be a perfectly angelic individual when, of course, he is not. No politician is angelic.

    I will vote for Bush if it will prevent Kerry from gaining office.

    rotjong
     
  6. j79zlr

    j79zlr Glaanies script monkey Political User

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    like what? He has absolutely no plan. He wants healthcare for everyone, how? Taxes, thats how. He was in Vietnam, I know that much. I know he has voted against every single defense bill he's present to vote for. And he isn't present that much. He votes to go to war, but he refused sending the money needed to support it. He's pro war, he's anti war. He's pro choice, he's pro life. He voted against Bush's tax cuts, he's voted against the death penalty for terrorists, but now says he's for it. He's against job outsourcing, but has voted for NAFTA and the free trade agreement with China. He's consistently voted for intelligence cuts, yet will fight terrorism?

    I am very sick of the anyone but Bush mentality, because that does no one any good. I really have yet to hear anyone say they are for Kerry, and the above is probably why. He's done nothing in his senate career except vote left without thought. Once the debates are on, hopefully it will shed some light on how unqualified Kerry really is.
     
  7. fitz

    fitz Just Floating Along Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    given the comments being put down, I think this poll question would be better worded either: "Who do you want to win?" or "Who would you vote for?"

    For what it's worth, my vote is down for Bush.

    --fitz
     
  8. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    j79zlr...

    kerry does not have a tax the rich policy :)

    he will keep tax breaks in place for most of the lower-middle, middle and upper middle classes and repeal some of the breaks for the uber rich... no real problems here since they are the ones who have benefited the most from bush's plan and dont' put anything back into the economy.. you are confusing the investors and businesses with rich individuals who don't do anything...

    I also have no problems with kerry's plan to offer tax breaks to companies that keep jobs in america and expand their businesses here rather than shipping everything abroad... bush has not offered a similar plan and the new platform makes no mention of anything either so thats out of the question...

    the recession began under bush's term... blaming it on clinton does not make it so... clinton oversaw job creation... bush has a netloss of over 1 million jobs in his term... he has also over-seen a year on year increase in the number of people living in poverty...

    the economy growing year on year will naturally look great given the fact that it was in the doldrums for so long... look @ all the data instead of just percentage year on year increases...

    healthcare for all can be achieved through proper management of resources and allowing for cheaper medication to be brought in from canada and other places... unlike bush's retarded medicare setup that INCREASES costs for older people and the general population while reducing benefits and preventing cheaper medication to come in from canada... higher taxes? I dunno bout that... a simple rework of the current medical setup plus reduction in litigation and a cap on monetary damages available in lawsuits will bring down premiums and make it easier for more people to get coverage...

    and don't even get me started on NAFTA.. bush opened the corridor to mexican drivers w/o restrictions as they existed before... now if you get run over by a mexican driver... too bad... they don't have to have insurance...

    as a trade agreement NAFTA is not bad... when you start doing dumb things like letting uninsured drivers drive around possibly getting into accidents without coverage... thats opening up pandora's box... texas happens to be a no-fault state...

    painting kerry as a flip-flopper by bush makes it convenient for bush not to have to answer any of his own more frequent and much bigger flip-flops... on foreign policy/medicare/social security/veterans benefits and the like... things that actually matter... and he's the president... :)

    kerry has good ideas... I don't personally like him but his platform is a lot better than anything bush has to offer or has shown in office so far...

    its an elected position... you are elected on the basis of "what have you done for me lately"

    bush has done nothing in my opinion that allows him to be re-elected... his policy of "compasionate conservatism" is absolute hogwash and now miraculously he wants to be seen as a compasionate conservative again :) and will probably ride the corpses of the 9/11 victims all the way to the steps of the white house (seen the RNC lately?)

    since bush has not shown or done anything that proves he deserves to be re-elected.. the anyone but bush philosophy is not so mis-guided...

    bush has had his chance... he has dropped the ball and is unlikely to make things any better in a second term... he'll probably get re-elected but that does not mean the country is going to be any better off...

    btw while yer giving out all of kerry's flip-flops :) please do explain to me the massive budget cuts for veterans benefits that have occured under bush :D

    I thought he was the war president...
     
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  9. albybum

    albybum Penguin Rancher

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    Bush:

    No child left behind act.
    The Fiscal Year 2004 budget submitted by President Bush fell $9 billion short of the amount authorized for 2004 and his FY 2003 budget fell $7.2 billion short of approved funding. [Office of Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, 6/9/03; Associated Press, 2/24/03]

    Between fiscal years 2002 and 2004, education spending in 35 states was unable to keep pace with increases in inflation and enrollment. [The Wallace Foundation, www.wallacefoundation.org; Education Week, 1/7/04]

    The man has pushed forward mandates to increase the level of education in the united states and ran heavily on this platform for his first term. He has not financially backed his own legislation. Many schools do not have the resources required to meet these new standards. Overpopulation, outdated text books, old outdated facilities, old techology. How can we force schools to increase the standard of education without giving them the tools to do so.


    Jobs.
    Last month's job growth fell below expectations with only 32,000 new jobs created.

    Bush has touted that in the past 12 months, just under 1 million new jobs were created and tried to spin that as an amazing event. The average job growth has hovered around 100,000 new jobs per month since 1990. The growth rate of June and July of this year combined was around the 100,000 mark.

    Bush was advised by many against his tax breaks and rebate plan. The enconomy has been stale due to consumer confidence brought about by a myriad of events, mostly 9-11. Giving middle-class people a small rebate isn't going to affect their confidence or spending habits enough to stir a stale economy given this market situation and world events.

    The tax break that affected the upper class also didn't spur any upper market investments. Most used the cut to balance what losses they had taken prior and very little investment came from this crowd.

    Health Care
    The Prescription Drug and Assistance Program for senior citizens as part of Medicare has been one of the most amazing disappointments brought about by this administration.

    This plan is supposed to provide a discount card to relieve the cost burden to the elderly for prescription drugs. This would be a welcome addition except for the fact that is hard to get and the system was poorly planned.

    You can only qualify for the card if you are NOT receiving Medicaid prescription benefits. There IS an enrollment fee for the program. Private companies are allowed to release cards under this program that are not guaranteed to be accepted and they are not limited on the premiums they charged. There are quite a few official Medicare cards, but you can only have 1 card at a time, and different cards are accepted at different locations and can cover different medicines depending on the provider. If you need to switch cards, you have to file a statment of need and wait on the card, unable to use the card for your prescriptions until you receive the new card. You are entitled to a $600.00 credit on your card for 2005, but only if you fall into the following category:

    Your annual income in 2004 is no more than $12,569 if you
    are single, or no more than $16,862 if you are married

    In March, they had to revise the guide down to 36 pages because it was too complicated for many to understand. This has created a huge strain on the local Department of Human Services in trying to handle requests for help for this program in addition to the responsibilites they had in the past.

    War

    This administration did not bother to verify their intelligence reports. They relied heavily on foreign intelligence that could not be verified. There was no established connection between Iraqi funding terrorism. Iraq was no immediate threat to the United States or our soldiers in the area at the time. The people of the United States were misled into a war that was not needed.

    Yes, Saddam hurt many of his own people. He was a horrible dictator. He was a threat in the past. Bush Sr. and Clinton each had opportunites to press the war and eliminate him. Instead he was disarmed and watched. In times of oppression people rise up. There have been previous attempts at Civil War in that nation. It would have been successful on it's own at some point.

    If you argue that it was needed. fine. Then why charge in with little support from the United Nations. This administration has put the largest strain on foreign relations that I have seen in my lifetime or can remember from history. The world hates us because of our aggression.

    Some argue that the forceful nature was needed. Afterall, Lybia was scared enough to announce voluntary disarming. But I pose this. Regan did the same thing, but never had to life a finger to put a scare into people. The Star Wars propaganda did more to deter hostility than anything G.W. has done so far.

    Kerry Slander

    People attack Kerry for flipflopping on issues. The man had reasons. When the Bush administration targetted Kerry for not supporting Body Armor for troops, they tried to spin that as negative. What they did not provide was the information behind it. In that spending package, there was also a large amount of pork-barrel spending. A lot of wasted money that could have been used elsewhere. It was unfortunate that the body armor was in that package, but that is exactly why it was in that package. They wanted to get the alternate spending pushed so much, that important things were added to the bill that almost couldn't afford to be denied. This is the dirty truth of politics.

    The swift boat ads. Kerry did speak out against the fact that SOME soldiers did do exactly what he described. Many Vietnam soldiers were tried and convicted of horrid crimes. Innocent people were slaughtered, not by accident, by American soldiers, that is a plain and simple fact. It happened. Kerry protested it. How can you fault him for that fact.

    Soldiers from Vietnam were unjustly treated horrible when they returned for many reasons. The war was not a war we could win with the resources we had at the time. These swiftboat veterans obviously have a bad taste from these events and they are angry at Kerry for speaking out because it is the exact same sentiment that they received when they came back from Vietnam. It does NOT counter the argument that these things did happen.

    I applaud Kerry for speaking out and making it known.

    Stem Cell Research

    I am a firm believer that the seperation of Church and State is something that should be taken seriously.

    Religious motives on behalf of Bush have limited the most amazing scientific opportunity that has happened in our lifetime. The waste material from birth and aborted fetuses are exactly that, being wasted due to the restriction on collection of new stem cell material.

    I am pro-choice to a point. I believe Abortion laws in the U.S. are borderline. If the abortion was legal, the stem cells should be allowed to be collected.

    We have the potential to cure cancer, aids, other terminal diseases. REGROW damaged organs and other tissue. Repair damaged nerve cells. Once our current small stock of stem cells are gone, our research stops and we will never know the full extent of what is possible.

    ----

    The deal is, Bush has not followed through on many of his promises from his first election. His administration has fumbled the ball on many topics and I am honestly scared at what 4 more years could do with him as president.

    Kerry has not clarified his position in many areas. But I am willing to give him a chance in office. He has a large number of economic advisors supporting his policies, whatever it may be.

    ----

    I think it is more rediculous to let Bush stay in office than take a chance on Kerry. Yes, I am a registered Republican.

    If McCain was running as opposition, I would be out there will Bells on supporting him for office, but he isn't.
     
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  10. j79zlr

    j79zlr Glaanies script monkey Political User

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    Somehow it isn't noted that the stock market recession was left by clinton. Look at a 5y on the DOW and NASDAQ it was headed downward, it is more notable on the NASDAQ because it is tech heavy and shows the .commerce coming to an end. Clinton's economic policy really had nothing to do with its success while he was in office, he just had the good luck of having the .com explosion while he was there. It should also be noted that the Worlcomm's and Enron's balooned the market under his presidency. Sept 11th didn't do any favors, yet Bush somehow managed to thwart a very possibly economic death giving temporary tax relief increasing consumer spending, good move.

    Do you have any idea how horrible Canadian healthcare is? We are a capitalist nation, not a socialist one. While we are on healthcare, its the ambulance chasers like Edwards that have our insurance costs through the roof.

    My problem with Kerry's tax plan is that it doesn't make sense. He offers cuts everywhere, yet he plans on giving national healthcare. The money has to come from somewhere. BTW Kerry has voted against almost every tax cut in his senate run. Bush has proposed to roll the top tax bracket back from 40% to ~33, whereas Kerry wants to raise it to 45%. He doesn't have a plan, he is just saying whatever his current audience wants. The number do not add up, how can he provide national healthcare, reduce the deficit, lower taxes, he can't. He will raise taxes, he has proposed to increase capital gains, dividend, and saving taxes. Maybe he'll reduce income tax, maybe thats what he means by reducing taxes. Whatever it is, its bad for our economy, period.

    I remember him speaking to a enviornmental group and touting his environmental awareness, then later speaking in Detroit and bragging about his SUV's. He has no backbone. I am not painting Kerry as a flipflopper, he's done that all by himself. All you have to do is look at his record.

    didn't Bush sign a Veterans Benefit Act in 2003 that increased benefits? I did remember reading an article that vets were outraged that their co-pay went up from $2 to $7. That hardly seems devastating.
     
  11. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    its the way the statistics are gathered and measured... there is an established setup to refer to these things... just coz the stock market was in a downturn doesn't mean recession automatically...

    also if you claim clinton's policy had nothing to do with the stockmarket then why are you claiming that bush's policy are leading the nation to recovery and there will be a boom after the elections?

    what is wrong with canada's healthcare? the people there live as long as american's do and spend less in fees... obviously can't be that bad...

    besides I am not talking about healthcare am I :) I am talking about medicide... do you have any idea how many american's travel across the border to purchase medicine in canada? because its cheaper there...

    bush used all the social security surplus to fund his policies post tax-cuts...

    the money did come from somewhere didn't it :)

    I would rather kerry cut the size of the damn government down from what bush has made it and use the savings on programs that actually work... healthcare is a worthwhile goal IMO... if I have to pay extra taxes for this... thats fine with me...

    how it is bad for our economy I don't understand... bush blowing up the budget deficit to record proportions and continuing to bloat it apparently hasn't hurt the economy (or has it :cool: ) perhaps you can explain it to me in macroeconomic terms....

    you are painting kerry as a flip-flopper... :) just the same way that the GOP has done all along... i don't see you saying bush is a compasionate conservative :D the ultimate "flip-flop" if you really wanna get into it..

    bush's policies have cut veterans benefits post gulf war... consistently...

    you need to read some more :cool:
     
  12. Geffy

    Geffy Moderator Folding Team

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    personally I reckon you got another 4 years to really try to find someone decent
     
  13. rotjong

    rotjong Moderator

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    As to the real question of this thread... I think Kerry will win regardless of how much I personally hate him. Maybe I'll renounce my American citizenship and/or leave the U.S.A. if he does. We'll see.

    rotjong
     
  14. Grandmaster

    Grandmaster Electronica Addict Political User Folding Team

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    The best thing Kerry has going for his is that he is not Bush. Kerry lacks leadership...

    That being said, I still don't want Bush for another four years, I have dislike him very much. And I think Bush will win by a small margin.

    Get your Clintons for '08 buttons right here...
     
  15. Maveric169

    Maveric169 The Voices Talk to Me

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    It simply amazes me just how dis-illusioned some of you fine folks really are. Let me get to that here in a min.

    Reguarding the candinents. How it is that the thought of Kerry in office doesn't scare the life out you is beyond me. And you can try and explaine it a million ways to sunday but the facts don't change. Kerry don't know if he is comming or going. There is not 1, not 1 thing he has made a firm decision on. Hell some things he has gone back and forth on so many times HE doesn't even no where he supposedly stands on the topic! Kerry is lined up to be the global whiping boy of all time. If he gets into office, and if there is a god, please help us all!

    Kerry takes the "popular at the time" position on an issue, then waits to see what the public stand is on that issue. If it is not inline with he current position, he quickly changes it, and has a whole list of reasons why.

    Kerry's service record, god gag me with a fork already. I am not even going to go into all the mud slinging parts of this debatical, lets just take 1 item that Kerry himself purported. I love this statement "I served in Cambodia". Two weeks later, when it comes to light that Kerry was never in Cambodia, he says "Well, I was near Cambodia". Jesus christ, does that mean I can claim residency in Michigan, no I don't live there, but I am near it.
    Ohh and lets not forget, 3 purple hearts! The man is so stupid that he can't figure out the enemy is shooting at him! A small hint Kerry "DUCK!"

    The man is high on himself, and I wish I could get my hands on what he is smoking!

    Kerry has only said 1 thing that I like, and that was he wants to cut tax breaks and incentives to companies that take their operations overseas. That is the only damn thing he has going for him in my mind.

    Kerry wants to fight a "More sensitive war on terror", WTF?!? I can see it now, a bill by Kerry for $4.8 billion for bullets coated with Percoset so it don't hurt the enemy as much. WTF ever Kerry, Pull the **** beads out of your *** and smell what your shoveling!

    Now don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to say that Bush is greatest thing for a president, because he is not. But by comparision to Kerry, at least Bush stands by his decisions, right or wrong. At least you know where Bush will be when the wind changes dirrection, right were he was. At least with Bush you know he is not going to bend to international pressure from self serving countries cause they might lose money on arms sales. And we won't see a bill for 200 billion boxes of kleenex in any type of conflict.

    Is Bush the right choice for the US, no not really, but Kerry damn sure isn't! Where is a good option C when you need it!

    Now, back to my first topic that I told you I would come back to. For some reason ppl think that the president has some dirrect control or major influence on stock market, economy, and yes even the employment markets.

    WRONG, try again.

    For the religious of you folks remember the saying "The greatest thing the devil ever did was to make ppl belive he didn't exist". Well guess what folks, the devil is CONGRESS! That is right, Congress! Congress is what truely runs the country, the president is just the idol of the instituion. But his powers, are very limited. The real power is held in congress. I challenge everyone to turn on C-Span at some point and watch a congress session where they pass and vote on bills. The first thing you will notice is that, over half are not even present, of those that are there are asleep with an aide there to vote for them (or to wake them and tell them to vote however the aide views things to go), and the third thing you will see is that 90% of them look to be about 150 years old and are not even sure of where they are much less what there doing there.

    Now I don't know about all of you but every election there is a box on the ballot that says "Would you like to elect a new congress into office?" I have ALWAYS checked that box, and everyone I have EVER talked to has said they checked that box. So why has there never been a new congress elected?

    You want to see things get better in this country, do what ever you can to get a new congress elected! A congress that does not know Moses personally!

    Sorry to say folks, but untill that day arrives, things will hardly change in this country reguardless of who is president.
     
  16. Sazar

    Sazar F@H - Is it in you? Staff Member Political User Folding Team

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    here's how I see it :)

    bush has not done anything in my book to deserve re-election...

    kerry has not been president yet... if he is president he himself is not going to be making all teh decisions... there is a cabinet and a set of rules and regs...

    since bush doesn't deserve to be re-elected based on his crap performance so far... its only logical for us to elect someone else to office... kerry happens to be the next person in line hence there is no problems with me in electing him...

    if someone can explain to me logically WHY bush should be re-elected I am all ears... till then kerry should be president...
     
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  17. NetRyder

    NetRyder Tech Junkie Folding Team

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    Exactly how I feel...
     
  18. Maveric169

    Maveric169 The Voices Talk to Me

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    Well I guess the first question whould be why you feel he doesn't deserve to be re-elected?
     
  19. Grandmaster

    Grandmaster Electronica Addict Political User Folding Team

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    Maveric169: if you read Sazar's last few posts...you might get your answer ;)
     
  20. rotjong

    rotjong Moderator

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    I'll address two points.

    1. Who is Kerry? As has been discussed already he is an unknown. Yeah, he was a Vietnam vet as he has gone to amazing lengths to ram down our throats. What else do we know? Does being a Vietnam vet make him a perfect leader? Actually, no, it means little especially when you take into account the war ended for the US over 30 years ago.

    I have yet to see Kerry in any interview actually answer a [censored] question he was asked. He never answers questions. He just goes off on some unrelated tangent about how he will be better than Bush. He doesn't answer anything! As others have said... his opinions on a subject change as he sees fit. Remember, folks, politicians tell you what you want to hear to get your votes!

    2. Tell me why Bush should be re-elected? He's done a poor job so Kerry should win. Um, sorry, but that is insane logic, IMO. So Numbskull X did a poor job we should just default to letting Numbskull Y. That is amazingly faulty logic, IMO. Sometimes it's better to leave the person you know but dislike in power than putting someone completely new that you don't know. Kerry... I don't see any positives because all I see is a phoney person who can't make up his mind about anything and brags about his military service but cries when anyone questions it.

    I really like neither but there is no way in [censored] I will vote for Kerry and since I cannot just not vote at all [I think not voting should be criminal] then that leaves Bush or Nader and Nader is nothing but an old senile fuddy dud these days.

    rotjong