[Olympics] Gymnastics, the Bane of athens 2004

[Sazar]

I am sure those who have been watching the olympic coverage know all about the paul hamm situation wrt to the all-around individual gold... as well as with khorkina in the women's all-around...

however the last day or so of the events in the individual event finals has been even more appalling...

I am not be an expert by any means wrt judging... but it is very clear to me when I see the same skill sets and see the same general mistakes made then I assume the one who performed the rest of the event cleanly and with a higher general level of difficulty would win...

not so in the mens gymnastic individual events..

i was awake watching the re-run of the gymnastics last night and there was alexei nemov of russia performing a flaw-less routine marred only by a step-out on his dismount from the high bar event...

the score came up and SOMEHOW his routine which included SIX release skills of the utmost difficulty scored less than the less risky and less smooth sets done by the two men before him...

in fact of the two men before him the japanese gymnast was also somehow mysteriously scored lower than the guy who went after..

anyways back to nemov... his overall routine was IMO and everyone elses in the arena head and shoulders better than the score given... he stood in 3rd place @ the time..

the booing and cat-calls continued and finally the judges conferred and the score miraculously changed... but he was STILL 3rd...

more boo'ing and cat-calls... more delays and finally nemov himself asked the crowd to keep quiet so paul hamm could do his routine...

paul hamm finished his routine which went well enough and dismounted... the dismount was not clean and he hopped...

result?

he received by far the highest score of anyone else in the event to the point and nemov was out of the medals...

MORE booing and catcalls...

were it not for an excellent routine by the italian lad this farce would have culminated in a riot and possible lynching of the judges...

nemov's landing was not great but neither was hamms nor the guy who finished 3rd... only the italian lad had a seemingly flawless performance (including 2 ridiculously tricky releases) and yet SOMEHOW hamm had the same score? even though the italian had a perfect landing?

----

Given the fact that the judges couldn't judge worth a damn why is it that the FIG refuses to over-turn results that are obviously flawed and compensate the atheletes who DESERVE the medals?

the south korean in the mens event and nemov in the high-bar are the 2 most obvious examples... the japanese lad on the beam also clearly robbed...

its just been a farce this whole time... starting with the american delegation being informed 3 of their gymnists scores would be judged from a lowered start value with no explanation..

and paul hamm.. I respect your efforts and applaud your excellent come-back but you know that the south-korean lad deserves that gold because he earned it... that is not sportsmanship...

 

[falconguard]

you know as far as the korean competitors go, this is karma for the ridiculous scoring of Roy Jones boxing match in South Korea. Had to come back and haunt them sometime...nemov should have had a higher score. I dont feel too badly...competition judging is still a farce.

 

[Kr0m]

Yeah, one of our (Canada) gymnasts got robbed of a bronze medal in the vault event due to the judge's irratic scoring. gg judges. We're supposedly appealing it and appealing and appealing but seem to be talking to the hand.
http://www.canada.com/sports/insideathens/story.html?id=dfaaf101-1f84-42db-8911-5cb24bf72f7b

 

[Sazar]

I don't really care about the other results at previous olympics... those are in the past and have no bearing on the results now... especially in completely different sports...

the fact of the matter is the judges @ the CURRENT olympics have been below standard...

wrt the canadian vaulter... I still have a problem with the japanese guy not getting enough points as well as a coupla the others... I didn't get a chance to see the canadian vaulter (on television here they don't show all the competitors sometimes) but I did see his floor routine...

 

[j79zlr]

The south Korean wasn't actually robbed in the all-around. Although he had a higher start value than he received, he was also not deducted for the four holds he had during the routine, which is an automatic 2 tenths, you are only allowed 3 stoppages in a || bar routine. I don't agree on the scoring for the high bar though, that russian's routine was absolutely awesome, and should have gotten the gold. Did you see the ring's scoring, the Greek guy went first, and the two guy's following him were both better, and nailed their landing, yet Tampakos still got the gold. Thats the problem with subjective scoring, I don't think you could change it. Maybe there should be 25 judges?

 

[Lee]

This crap has been going on for years anyway. Only since it's money based have people started getting the ump!

You only have to see the results on the eurovision song contest to understand how people don't want to offend their neighbours. Another example is Argentina having to beat Peru in the World Cup 1978 by 5 goals to deprive Brasil of a final place and Peru's economy got boosted by a few million dollars, water off a Ducks back, it's sad, but what do I know about sport huh.

 

[rotjong]

I am not be an expert by any means wrt judging... but it is very clear to me when I see the same skill sets and see the same general mistakes made then I assume the one who performed the rest of the event cleanly and with a higher general level of difficulty would win...

not so in the mens gymnastic individual events.

The women got screwed over just as much as the men with inconsistent scores. Maybe it just was as blindly obvious but it was there throughout the gymnastics events.

paul hamm finished his routine which went well enough and dismounted... the dismount was not clean and he hopped...

Paul Hamm actually performed an essentially flawless routine minus one instance where his arms were slightly bent if I am remembering right. Yes, he hopped when he landed his dismount which is worth the same deduction that Nemov was given.

The real question is what were the starting values for each of the routines. I agree Nemov was screwed over but most people tend to not always realize that even with a perfect score on a specific routine a gymnast couldn't be another with a more difficult routine. I don't believe this to be the case here since I would imagine Hamm and Nemov both likely had routines with starting values of 10.

only the italian lad had a seemingly flawless performance (including 2 ridiculously tricky releases) and yet SOMEHOW hamm had the same score? even though the italian had a perfect landing?

The releases performed by the Italian gymnast while insanely risky didn't score bonus points for their riskiness. I also believe that Hamm performed first, right? Gymnasts on the high bar are required to perform 1 release move in their routine. More, when performed without error, will garner bonus point. I remember the Italian's two insane releases but I don't recall more. Hamm had at least 3 release moves [these 3 being right in a row] and I think there may have been a fourth as well. As I mentioned earlier about starting values this is a case to look at that. I do not recall the differences in starting values.

and paul hamm.. I respect your efforts and applaud your excellent come-back but you know that the south-korean lad deserves that gold because he earned it... that is not sportsmanship...

Paul Hamm deserved to win and rightly did [this has already been addressed in this thread by j79zlr]. Unfortunately, Hamm has been made a villain and I feel poorly for him. It's really too bad the media hasn't picked up on the routine error by the Korean athlete that would have cost 2 tenths of a point but hey the media loves controversy so they won't talk about that because then the whole argument would be moot and they would lose their story.

I was a gymnast many years ago [though hardly Olympics caliber] and I completely understand how screwed up this stuff can be. Give Hamm a break. Just my two cents.

rotjong

 

[rotjong]

The south Korean wasn't actually robbed in the all-around. Although he had a higher start value than he received, he was also not deducted for the four holds he had during the routine, which is an automatic 2 tenths, you are only allowed 3 stoppages in a || bar routine.

Good call You are absolutely correct here.

Sorry to the folks who wish to disagree but regardless of the starting value of the routine the Korean bronze medalist would never have won the gold with his routine as he performed it. If it had had the correct starting value then the score would have been essentially the same. Either way, he loses.

I don't agree on the scoring for the high bar though, that russian's routine was absolutely awesome, and should have gotten the gold.

No question that Nemov should have won the gold on the high bar.

rotjong

 

[Sazar]

The south Korean wasn't actually robbed in the all-around. Although he had a higher start value than he received, he was also not deducted for the four holds he had during the routine, which is an automatic 2 tenths, you are only allowed 3 stoppages in a || bar routine. I don't agree on the scoring for the high bar though, that russian's routine was absolutely awesome, and should have gotten the gold. Did you see the ring's scoring, the Greek guy went first, and the two guy's following him were both better, and nailed their landing, yet Tampakos still got the gold. Thats the problem with subjective scoring, I don't think you could change it. Maybe there should be 25 judges?

wrt the 4 holds and what not... thats what the NBC coverage said wrt the korean's routine... a similar "solid" point was made wrt kitajima even though every other swimmer in the frame also appeared to have their knees bent to about the same degree or more...

per the governing body an error was made...

the greek guy winning is another example of the odd scoring mechanisms employed and further strengthens the point... I can understand a score here and there being off but watching the individual events I saw so many worthy gymnasts robbed of medals or receiving lower medals than they deserved it just boggled the mind...

 

[Sazar]

The women got screwed over just as much as the men with inconsistent scores. Maybe it just was as blindly obvious but it was there throughout the gymnastics events.

I didn't watch much of the womens events unfortunately

Paul Hamm actually performed an essentially flawless routine minus one instance where his arms were slightly bent if I am remembering right. Yes, he hopped when he landed his dismount which is worth the same deduction that Nemov was given.

yes paul hamm had a good routine but come on... his score relative to the score nemov originally got was ludicrous...

The real question is what were the starting values for each of the routines. I agree Nemov was screwed over but most people tend to not always realize that even with a perfect score on a specific routine a gymnast couldn't be another with a more difficult routine. I don't believe this to be the case here since I would imagine Hamm and Nemov both likely had routines with starting values of 10.

afaik they were the same... nemov's routine was one of the riskiest just coz of the sheer number of releases... but hamms had a coupla different elements... wrt skills I remember the 3 US atheletes had to add release skills to their routines in the pre-lims to raise em from 9.9's to 10.0 worthy sets...

The releases performed by the Italian gymnast while insanely risky didn't score bonus points for their riskiness. I also believe that Hamm performed first, right? Gymnasts on the high bar are required to perform 1 release move in their routine. More, when performed without error, will garner bonus point. I remember the Italian's two insane releases but I don't recall more. Hamm had at least 3 release moves [these 3 being right in a row] and I think there may have been a fourth as well. As I mentioned earlier about starting values this is a case to look at that. I do not recall the differences in starting values.

the italian guy didn't make a mistake in his routine that I know of... he may not have been as brilliant as nemov but he also didn't mess up any of his releases nor did he have a bad dismount... his dismount was perfect...

also given the italian lads skill-sets I am assuming he was also judged on a 10.0 scale... on the high-bar unlike the vault I don't think any of the atheletes woulda gone for a lower than 10.0 start value...

Paul Hamm deserved to win and rightly did [this has already been addressed in this thread by j79zlr]. Unfortunately, Hamm has been made a villain and I feel poorly for him. It's really too bad the media hasn't picked up on the routine error by the Korean athlete that would have cost 2 tenths of a point but hey the media loves controversy so they won't talk about that because then the whole argument would be moot and they would lose their story.

i watched the same show that j79zlr did... their claim was that the korean paused 4 times during the routine... I did not see what the commentator saw... I saw him doing hand-stands which I believe are part of the routine...

you cannot look @ a routine and arbitarily say "oh look... a pause" when in fact he is doing a skill set...

I was a gymnast many years ago [though hardly Olympics caliber] and I completely understand how screwed up this stuff can be. Give Hamm a break. Just my two cents.

rotjong

I don't have a problem with hamm... I have a problem with the fact that it would appear given the way the scores went the korean won and I think its un-sporting under these circumstances to keep the medal...

I know if I was in his position I would have turned it over because I would know in my heart I did not deserve it... hamm feels in his heart that he deserves it and thats that... there is nothing the FIG is going to do in order to over-turn this decision or the nemov decision that I can see...

they can ban judges and admit they are wrong but they can't change results

 

[rotjong]

I didn't watch much of the womens events unfortunately

In the case of the womens' events it wasn't quite as insanely obvious but there were definitely abnormalities in the scoring, sadly.

yes paul hamm had a good routine but come on... his score relative to the score nemov originally got was ludicrous...

I agree 100%

afaik they were the same... nemov's routine was one of the riskiest just coz of the sheer number of releases...

And because he did 6 releases and performed them as well as he did he should have gotten bonus points and as we all agree he should have won it outright.

the italian guy didn't make a mistake in his routine that I know of... he may not have been as brilliant as nemov but he also didn't mess up any of his releases nor did he have a bad dismount... his dismount was perfect...

This is where it comes into account the difference in releases. As I said I think the Italian gymnast only did two while Hamm did at least three [if not four]. Hamm would receive bonuses for the extra releases in comparison to the Italian. I think a step on the dismount is approx 1 tenth deduction. Take into account that Hamm did more releases and it can void a difference in the final scoring.

also given the italian lads skill-sets I am assuming he was also judged on a 10.0 scale

They probably both were but see my previous comment.

on the high-bar unlike the vault I don't think any of the atheletes woulda gone for a lower than 10.0 start value...

Agreed. There aren't many countries that go for the lesser difficulties but some do. Slow and steady lower difficulty routines can sometimes beat the more difficult ones due to lack of deductions but that really only comes into play in the all-around competitions.

i watched the same show that j79zlr did... their claim was that the korean paused 4 times during the routine... I did not see what the commentator saw... I saw him doing hand-stands which I believe are part of the routine...

you cannot look @ a routine and arbitarily say "oh look... a pause" when in fact he is doing a skill set...

I did run across the broadcast where this was discussed on TV. The issue was how long the gymnast held his pike position before pushing up into a handstand. The pause, to me, was noticeable. It should have been a more constant and fluid motion while he hesitated and that hesitation made it a pause because he actually held it. Otherwise, yes, his routine was awesome.

I don't have a problem with hamm... I have a problem with the fact that it would appear given the way the scores went the korean won and I think its un-sporting under these circumstances to keep the medal...

I didn't mean my reply to come across as badly as it might have. From my point of view, however, I think Hamm outscored the Korean gymnast. It has nothing to do with the nationalities for me but more to do with the actual perfomances.

I know if I was in his position I would have turned it over because I would know in my heart I did not deserve it... hamm feels in his heart that he deserves it and thats that...

Personally, if I was in Hamm's position I would not feel poorly because of what I've already said. Although the Korean gymnasts routine was amazingly great there was that one error that screwed it up regardless of the judges mistakes. The real question here is if an argument would have been made if the intial starting value had been correct and they had incorrectly not deducted for the pause. I doubt the controversy ever would have happened. To me this is a bit sad but things happen as they will. There is no instant replay. Yes, all the judges involved should be dealt with accordingly.

there is nothing the FIG is going to do in order to over-turn this decision or the nemov decision that I can see...

they can ban judges and admit they are wrong but they can't change results

The FIG needs to sit all the judges down in the future [if not the IOC in general] and smack them all upside the head and tell them to pay the hell attention to their job and to do it in an unbiased manner.

The best athlete should always win regardless of nationality.

rotjong

 

[Son Goku]

the booing and cat-calls continued and finally the judges conferred and the score miraculously changed... but he was STILL 3rd...

more boo'ing and cat-calls... more delays and finally nemov himself asked the crowd to keep quiet so paul hamm could do his routine...

paul hamm finished his routine which went well enough and dismounted... the dismount was not clean and he hopped...

result?

he received by far the highest score of anyone else in the event to the point and nemov was out of the medals...

MORE booing and catcalls...

Well I was out of state (as you know) and hadn't seen this; but it's obvious what the audience thought of their judgeing. Judges at times don't catch everything; but here, hmm...

Some of the judgeing can be stupid though. Charley was telling us that various events of Tia Chi are in the Olympics now, else 3 aspects of it will be, but as to what they expect... Lets just say a lot of it is rather wrong. For instance, when he was I guess showing someone the correct way to do something, the reply was "if we do it that way, they'll get on our case about needing to use more force...". It was about a month or so ago he gave us this story, and I'm tired now... He was like "what do you mean more force? This is Tia Chi, an internal form of Kung Fu, not a hard style... That will ruin it all, and leave it less effective..."

He also mentioned several things about the judgeing, along with them seeming to have a mixed up impression of what one should be doing...

 

[rotjong]

Well I was out of state (as you know) and hadn't seen this; but it's obvious what the audience thought of their judgeing. Judges at times don't catch everything; but here, hmm...

An important thing to note is that Nemov was not the only gymnast on the high bar to receive booing from the crowd as a result of a score they felt was too low. Hamm and the Italian gymnast also received similar receptions after their scores were announced and it was not because people were mad about Nemov. It was about the screwed up scoring from the judges for that event.

It would appear that, as a whole, too many changes were made this Olympics. There were last minute changes in requirements and the way things are judged. Hopefully the next Olympics will be more cleaned up.

My God... an example of how weird this Olympics was that they wanted to drop Women's softball as a sport and yet we had to endure synchronised diving? As if synchronised swimming was bad enough... Thankfully they kept the softball.

rotjong

 

[Son Goku]

An important thing to note is that Nemov was not the only gymnast on the high bar to receive booing from the crowd as a result of a score they felt was too low. Hamm and the Italian gymnast also received similar receptions after their scores were announced and it was not because people were mad about Nemov. It was about the screwed up scoring from the judges for that event.

Yeah, I gathered things were screwed up...and I've heard some tails as well. I think one of my teachers (they were mentioning the Olympics and then this, so I guess they meant it in this context) were brought in to try out as judges. No one supposedly made the mark, and as I mentioned he said a lot of the stuff they were looking for were just wrong in the martial art's context...but then called him up and asked him if he would judge anyway. Not sure he wants to however...

My God... an example of how weird this Olympics was that they wanted to drop Women's softball as a sport and yet we had to endure synchronised diving? As if synchronised swimming was bad enough... Thankfully they kept the softball.

Synchronized diving Yeah, next we'll be looking at synchronized boxing Now how could one try to knock their opponent out, in a synchronized manner ROFL

 

[Lee]

Interesting as a chick from the USA has been allowed out of jail to compete in the Synchronized Swimming, hope she don't do a runner

 

[leedogg]

What I cant stand is that everybody is putting the blame on paul hamm. the olympic committee and the fans all seem to pointing their fingers at him and saying he should give his medal to the korean. Paul didnt do a damn thing wrong, and hes taking the fall for the olympic committee's screwup.

Why dont we just allow replays and appeals for every Olympic game ever played? Then put pressure on all the atheletes deemed to win incorrectly to give their medals up.

 

[rotjong]

What I cant stand is that everybody is putting the blame on paul hamm. the olympic committee and the fans all seem to pointing their fingers at him and saying he should give his medal to the korean. Paul didnt do a damn thing wrong, and hes taking the fall for the olympic committee's screwup.

I agee 100% with you. Unfortunately it's easier for people to be mad at him than the IOC and the FIG. Sad

rotjong

 

[falconguard]

Lee, she still has to go to jail when she returns, DUI sentence with 2 deaths. The Judge used her discretion to defer the punishment until after the olympics. Yeah , we are pretty mad about that one...We will se if she comes up for election soon, should be an unemployed judge pretty soon.

 

[Maveric169]

What I cant stand is that everybody is putting the blame on paul hamm. the olympic committee and the fans all seem to pointing their fingers at him and saying he should give his medal to the korean. Paul didnt do a damn thing wrong, and hes taking the fall for the olympic committee's screwup.

Why dont we just allow replays and appeals for every Olympic game ever played? Then put pressure on all the atheletes deemed to win incorrectly to give their medals up.

EXACTLY! I can't figure that out! Put it in terms that ppl can understand, if you were give a $100 bonus for being the employee of the month, but everyone else felt that "John" did a better job than you and he missed 1 day of work less than you, who's is responsible for that? Well according to some ppl you are, now give your $100 bonus to "John" you know he really deserves it.

Hell no, if "John" don't like ti let him take it up with the boss, the staff don't like it, let them take it up with the boss. It is not your fault you were choosen over "John".

On a side note, there has always been major issues with judging at olympic events. The bad part is that the ppl who over see the judges, refuse to do their jobs and confront obvious errors.

Like in the individual event. It took the entire crowd booing for 10+ mins to get the judges to address their error. That should tell you that there is something really wrong with the system. And it is a catch 22 also, because now there is a presedent that public opinion and outrage can force a change in the scores, weather it is warrented or not. Granted in this case it was very much warrented IMO.

I am not sure what would be needed to fix the problems as they seem epidemic.