my tax returns, the effects {politics}

Discussion in 'Green Room' started by Perris Calderon, Jun 7, 2005.

  1. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    I may delete this thread in when I'm not as depressed as now, the following is probably too personal, so don't be surprised if it's gone next time you look

    well, I've been getting a few hundred dollars from the Bush economic policy for a few years now.

    I think my extra dollar return has amounted to about 1800 bucks....nice, I put it in the bank, cuz I had no use for it but to invest

    I know plenty of people needed that cash, so it was probably more important to them then me

    exit

    enter

    two weeks ago, I had to get my dad a hip replacement...his hip was frozen and he couldn't bend sit or walk without pain

    he had to wait about 6 weeks to get his medicare approval and then for a spot from the few surgeons that still take medicare

    his operation went very smooth...(thank you god)

    then, while still recovering, we were informed that medicare could no longer handle his recovery...he had to be sent home two days after surgery

    he was still having serious issues caused by the surgery, couldn't at all get out of bed on his own, couldn't give himself the medicine neccessary, couldn't use the mens room, couldn't eat, etc

    I was told by the staff that if he was admitted into surgery just three weeks sooner, his recovery would have been provided at least a cople of weeks, and if he was admitted a couple of years ago, his recovery would have been provided for at least a month

    now however, medicare changed it's protocol since there is nothing left of our resources to keep it solvent, and any further care had to be provided by family.

    my dad has been paying into medicare all his life...he's a veteran as well...none of that matters.

    I put him into private care at personal expense.

    I won't go into further details, but a long story short, my long saved investments are now liquid to provide for my a dad

    Does anyone think that 1800 dollars I recieved in "tax relief" is going to cover any of this?

    these are the effects realized sooner then I thought would be realized of "giving my money to rich people"

    I've said the "bill will be paid", and all of us will go through similar situtaions to "pay the bill"

    More, I would have retired in a few years with my investments and social security...not possible for any future that I can see anymore
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  2. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    Sorry to hear that about your dad.

    I had the same problem with my grandfather when he had a brain aneurism and became a vegetable. Interestingly enough was, it was during the Clinton administration. But we didn't belittle his misfortune, his passing, or the draining of family resources by politicizing them and blaming the current president. We just took the hit and moved on, because we all knew beforehand that Social Security and Medicare would never amount to much.

    Social security isn't like a bank account (as people often seem to think). The money paid into it goes into the big pot like every other tax, and when you die, you don't get to leave it to your family or earn any interest on it while you live. Nobody on earth would throw money into a bank account that paid no interest and informed you ahead of time that they might give it to someone else and run out of money to get your deposits back to you, yet that's always been the guarantee of social security.

    Now that the people who originally paid into it are seeing the end results, maybe the truth will finally be brought into the light.

    [​IMG]
    Nice job there, buddy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
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  3. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    current social security and medicare issues are the direct result of our lack of the surplus that was there before the surplus was given away...the "truth" will be told by the consolidated media though, and people will actually blame the system instead of the policy

    social security is not only retirement, it's to secure society.

    we are all going to be paying the bill of this deliberate depletion of our resources.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  4. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    more;

    do you know how much more the middle class is going to have to pay for college education?

    because of it, plenty of children won't be going to college, and who's families make the sacrifice for college will therefore not be contributing their savings to the economy, they will instead be saving for their children's college education

    these tax giveaways to the wealthy will snowball more then anyone at the moment thinks
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  5. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    When was our country ever out of debt? I have never seen a surplus. Maybe you're referring to the projected spending surplus we had based on the dotcom bubble of 1999.

    So 40% of their income (on top of all other non-income taxes is not enough? How about 50%? What about 70%? Where does it stop before they start outsourcing jobs to other countries and Americans are out on the streets, jobless and not paying taxes? Oh wait...they already are.
     
  6. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    it's the amount of debt, and how the bill is payed and by who that matters

    there is no such thing as a 9 year "bubble."

    a 9 year economic growth cycle is a remarkable accomplishment

    at all cost, for the American economy thrive you must keep the middle class as strong as possibly
     
  7. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    there is a bill to be payed for your wealth in America unwonted...it's just the same as your heating bill and your electric bill...you want to live in a great house, you pay the price

    you want to live in this great country, you need to pay the bill and you need to keep the system of economics vibrant and be happy about it

    our system of economics is supposed to provide for improving your economic status...poor to middle class or better, middle class to upper class or better

    OF COURSE a person that struggles to put their children through college need to pay less for the priveldege of American economics then those that things of that sort are a drop in the bucket

    then, when someone becomes wealthy because of American economic strategy, they want to stop paying the very bill that provided their rise to wealth?

    typical

    the wealthy pay more for everything, more for their car, their food, their clothing, and more for their pleasure

    they MUST pay more for the privilege of living in this economic strategy

    I have to go for a few hours, more later
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  8. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    I reject the premise that someone can only become wealthy with the government's help.

    And I reject the notion that the nation can only operate and have rich people with a graduated income tax. Before we had a graduated income tax, there were wealthy people.

    I also reject the line of thinking that states we should always come at the wealthy and say "You'll pay for your lifestyle, rich boy. Do you hear me? You'll PAAAAAAAAY."

    And who first published the idea of a graduated income tax?
    [​IMG]

    Yup.

    You know what rich people do when taxes get too high? They move their business out of the country.
     
  9. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    I reject the premise also...did anyone say "can only become wealthy with the governments help"?...nobody said that

    much of that was old money, I'm talking about new wealth

    this is the economic strategy...I guess you want to experiment to find out if it's because of that that our economics worK?

    you want a free ride for the wealthy?...hmmm..interesting;

    "hey, wealthy boy...you don't have to pay...DID YOU HEAR THAT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY, YOU'RE WEALTHY...YAYYYYYY"
    yes, marx proposed the idea.

    are you under the impression that everything marx said was incorrect?

    hardly
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  10. Perris Calderon

    Perris Calderon Moderator Staff Member Political User

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    this is pretty simple to see with the following question;

    imagine what might not have happened or might not ever happen if only those that could afford college had higher edcucation
     
  11. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    Not "free". Just "fair". To call it a tax "break" is inaccurate. If poor people paid 15% income tax, and rich people paid 40%, then you reduced rich people's income tax to 35%, how is that a break? They're still paying a disproportionate amount of taxes. You end up with qualified people who turn down promotions just because they will pay more in taxes.

    As to Marx...I didn't see communism do much good for North Korea, the Soviet Union, East Germany, and other communist states. China has a strong economy, but it rests on the backs of a people working for slaves wages and living under a totalitarian government. Ever tried to browse the internet in China? You couldn't even read this post.

    Anyone can secure credit for a college loan. My dad's credit was horrible and I had no credit, yet we were easily able to secure $20,000 at 3.8% interest (which amounts to about 2.3% figuring in for inflation). It's hard work to finish college, get a job, and pay it back, but the success stems from the individual, not the government.
     
  12. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    That's plain misleading and deceitful. You know what else Karl Marx proposed? The idea of a centralized bank. Yup, the "Federal Reserve" owes its origins to Karl Marx. He also proposed ending child labor and free, universal public education. I'm not a communist, but it is undeniable to ignore the positive influence that Marxist theories have had on capitalist society. In fact, we *had* to do it; laissez-faire capitalism breeded nothing but non-competitive monopolies (Standard Oil; railroad trusts), extremely low wages at long hours, and rampant corruption through big business corrupting politicians. ****ing Adam Smith who invented capitalism was also staunchly against monopolies and the potential for power concentration in big business.

    Guess what, folks? Ready or not, we're on the way back to the late 19th century, and that means Karl Marx will be right: capitalism will collapse on the weight of its own greed, with no need for "global revolution" or any populist intervention. Regulation in the early 20th century was really the only thing that stopped Marx's "end prophesy" from coming true.

    Besides, back to the graduated income tax, someone has to pay for our ****ing money pit here. We just spent hundreds upon hundreds of billions of dollars on Iraq. Who do you think can afford to pay for this? The working class? Ha!

    And rich people have existed as long as there have been taxes. So they can ****ing stop their whining and pay up. I don't see Paris ****ing Hilton growing bankrupt from paying taxes. I'd gladly pay 40% taxes, if I could have $120 million gross to go along with it. Pretty please?

    Melon
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2005
  13. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Not really a fair question. Loans are not that difficult to come by. Even better -- do well in school and you can earn yourself a free ride. <-- The subject of "earning your way" is huge to this issue, IMO, but almost needs its own thread.
     
  14. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    I can't stand her either, but she's an extreme version of the rich. It's people who actually earn the money, not have it given to them, that get crapped on when having to pay 40%.
     
  15. Petros

    Petros Thief IV

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    Communism collapses under the weight of apathy. A man is unwilling to work harder for the same reward as the bum next to him.

    No, rich people existed before there were taxes. Even the most jaded big-government communist knows that.
    Heck, let's make them pay 90%. She still has $12 million, right? Better yet, let's make her pay 95%, then she'll still have $6 million. Still lots of cash. How about 99%. A cool $1.2 million! That's more money than I have. Do you see where this is going? Where does it stop?

    I already saw your user name to the left of your post.

    By the way, my state (CA) is going bankrupt on the weight of social programs. Businesses that are able are fleeing the state to places where taxes are way, way lower. People are losing their jobs because businesses can't even move under all the government control.
     
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  16. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Unwonted, you're presenting some great evidence/experience to support your side. Nice job. :)

    I'm sorry, but that's just too funny! :laugh:
     
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  17. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    I've never defended communism, and I'm not going to now. And your logic is faulty; just because communism collapses under apathy doesn't mean that unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism won't collapse under greed. In fact, I think that supply-side economics is a failure solely in that it is wholly short-sighted and only interested in quick quarterly profits at the expense of long-term growth and stability. We're still running off of 30+ year old R&D, when we were still practicing Keynesian capitalism. Everything from the internet to computers here is still running off of its 30 year old origins. If nanotech ever takes off, I'll gladly say that we've finally created something new.

    What the hell are you talking about? In the 1950s, corporations paid 90% of the tax base in the U.S. Nowadays, they pay 8% of the tax base. Wealthy corporations and tycoons existed in the 1950s! In fact, what do you think the 1980s were? Nothing but a revival of the 1950s and our romanticist ideas surrounding them. But there's the difference: wealthy people paid a hell of a lot more taxes in the "good old days" than they did 30 years later.



    Easily. 35%. That's the income tax rate set. Stop being so hyperbolic. Where do the tax cuts stop? Until rich people pay no taxes at all? Hell...a lot of them already do this with illegal tax shelters. A good portion of the richest of the Fortune 500 companies paid no taxes at all. So, in your model, what are we supposed to do? Start writing corporations and wealthy people checks for money that they didn't earn? Too bad we already do this to a degree when we subsidize sport stadiums.

    Bite me.[dealer edit]

    You know, you have a point here. What's also lost is that the wealth of the "Blue States" also fund most federal government, and "low tax" states like most of the South actually consume more federal dollars than they generate. I mean, if we're going to give these states money that they haven't earned, what's their incentive to get off of their ass and do something about it? Welfare only generates laziness, right? And while we're at it, the next time California has a flood, mudslide, sinkhole, earthquake, and forest fire, don't come bitching to the federal government to bail you out. Pay for it your ****ing self. I mean, where's the incentive for Californians to solve their own problems when they get welfare? It's not *my* fault that you built on a ****ing sandcastle.

    Oh and I nearly forgot: your potential decade-long or more droughts and your high energy consumption that could lead to blackouts. California can die of dehydration in the dark before I ever want to give one red cent to that state ever again.

    Melon
     
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  18. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    Argh...this is why I voted against creating a political forum. :p

    Anyway, I'm willing to tone down the rhetoric, if we can stick to the topic and not resort to petty things like making fun of posting my name. It's like signing a letter that has your name in the header. Kind of redundant, but hey...people do it.

    Melon
     
  19. muzikool

    muzikool Act your wage. Political User

    Settle down. :rolleyes:

    You can control your emotions, even if it's difficult.
     
  20. melon

    melon MS-DOS 2.0 Political User

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    I know. I'm already over it. ;)

    Melon