Bonds 756*

[kcnychief]

Re: Bonds 755*

I like the quote I heard on SC this morning (Sportscenter).

Allegations of performance enhancing drugs turned a phenomonal player into a superhuman player.

Some people forget he was still great before the "Questionable times"

 

[madmatt]

I disagree. He wasn't "great". However, steroid use doesn't give you a better eye at the plate and he has one of the best. His walks to strikeout ratio is amazing. But he didn't start hitting homeruns until he beefed up (a lot) and that's when the allegations became.

 

[j79zlr]

He wasn't great? He had 500 HR & 500 SB before any steroid allegations popped up. That would have got him into the Hall of Fame easily and deservedly so.

 

[Sazar]

Yay, go Barry

And Matt, he WAS great before there were any hints about steroid use and so forth. Look @ all the awards he won over the years before the Balco issue.

 

[Perris Calderon]

I disagree. He wasn't "great". However, steroid use doesn't give you a better eye at the plate and he has one of the best. His walks to strikeout ratio is amazing. But he didn't start hitting homeruns until he beefed up (a lot) and that's when the allegations became.

my feelings are mixed but let me address some points

steroids does give you better hand eye coordination, there are a number of differant types of steroids, each to target specific concerns, some are for fast twitch muscle fiber, some are for slow twitch

and there is an aggression that's assoicated with steroids that gives faster reaction time

sazar, the assumption isn't bonds wasn't on steroids because of the balco issue being brought to light it was before

you can't grow more then a few pounds of muscle a year when off steroids, steroids and hgh give you 20 pounds of solid muscle just on one cylce alone

and there is a good percentage that is permanent, it's not temporary and getting off the drug doesn't get you back to square one

j79...he is proven to have done sterioids, he claims he didn't know they were steroids

now here's where I take the other side of the argument

I believe at least 90 percent of the athletes in all professional sports are on steroieds, this of course includes baseball

I believe clemens, of course mcquire and sosa

I also believe jeter, who is one of my all time favorites I might add

so to single out bonds doesn't make any sense, I believe they have all done performance enhancing drugs at some point in their lives

now if anyone wants to do a little research, I have some pretty good knowledge on these issues, I have helped with the research on some publications on the issue such as "death in the locker room" and "stopping the clock" among others, you'll find me in the credits at the beginning of these books

 

[madmatt]

Okay, I just looked at his career stats and he was a bit better than I first had thought. However, from 1986 to 1999 he had three 40+ homerun seasons with five seasons with 25 or less homeruns. His high from 1986 to 1999 was 46 in 1993. Since 2000 he has had five 40+ homerun seasons.

 

[Sazar]

my feelings are mixed but let me address some points

steroids does give you better hand eye coordination, there are a number of differant types of steroids, each to target specific concerns, some are for fast twitch muscle fiber, some are for slow twitch.

Better reflexes but you STILL need hand-eye coordination.

No one has had better plate discipline over the past decade than Bonds.

and there is an aggression that's assoicated with steroids that gives faster reaction time

Yes, read above.

sazar, the assumption isn't bonds wasn't on steroids because of the balco issue being brought to light it was before

you can't grow more then a few pounds of muscle a year when off steroids, steroids and hgh give you 20 pounds of solid muscle just on one cylce alone

Out of curiosity, have you seen Kobe Bryant from season to season? Have you seen people like David Craig and Christian Bale put on SOLID muscle, over 20 pounds or more, in just a few months? Heck, Bale went from the Machinist to the Batman movie in a few months.

and there is a good percentage that is permanent, it's not temporary and getting off the drug doesn't get you back to square one

This is true even if you build up muscle normally because you are breaking it down and reforming it.

j79...he is proven to have done sterioids, he claims he didn't know they were steroids

Yep, the clear and the whatever, he said he used substances like that because he believed they were flax-seed oil or something.

now here's where I take the other side of the argument

I believe at least 90 percent of the athletes in all professional sports are on steroieds, this of course includes baseball

I believe clemens, of course mcquire and sosa

I also believe jeter, who is one of my all time favorites I might add

so to single out bonds doesn't make any sense, I believe they have all done performance enhancing drugs at some point in their lives

now if anyone wants to do a little research, I have some pretty good knowledge on these issues, I have helped with the research on some publications on the issue such as "death in the locker room" and "stopping the clock" among others, you'll find me in the credits at the beginning of these books

Clemens and Jeter? I mean, JETER?

Seriously?

Why not through Ichiro in there as well

 

[falconguard]

If they are not on Steroids, they are on uppers. It's been baseballs dirty little secret for years going all the way back to the great Mickey Mantle.

 

[gonaads]

Until there is proof and or a positive test on any of these athletes, speculation and rumors is just that. You can write all the books you want on the subject matter and or be a contributing writer but without hard evidence all that is said is the rumor mill churning round and round grinding the same old axe that still doesn't have any blood on it. And the thing about all this is that every time that someone gets close to breaking a record, any of the more prestigious records. They (whoever they may be) will be bashed in one form or another with rumors or gossip of "Is he on steroids?" "Is he using any performance enhancers?" "Someone said he was, then he must be." "They say he is so it must be true." Rumors destroy good people and gossip is the poison that creates the rumors. There's nothing as evil and spiteful as people that begin to gossip to create rumors, due to envy and hatred or shear stupidity. Now many will say, Oh well many have used performance enhancers. And to that I say many haven't used performance enhancers. The ones that have they have been caught. Look at Rafael Palmeiro. Now he was caught. Now Perris you believe that Clemens, Sosa and Jeter have used. I don't care what you "believe" because you can't back it up. So I believe not to believe you. Until there is proof and not hearsay it's nothing but flappin gums in the wind. More diatribe to fuel people that don't know any better. You see in the public eye an athlete's career is made or destroyed by public opinion and criticism, not by their accomplishments. You can accomplish a lot and be in the record books but the fans will be the ones that make you to be remembered or just a statistic in a record book.

And this isn't just for Bonds, but for all the baseball players out there that will have to endure the bull shiit comments without substance against them. Just because they may have gotten stronger bigger better and could be chasing a dream. A record. A place in baseball history. Remember that the physics of sports training has changed dramatically over the years. Science has taught many new ways to train, bulk up and or gain speed, stamina and the such. And I don't mean with drugs either.

There are 3 types of human bodies. They are ectomorphic, mesomorphic, or endomorphic. I still remember some of my kinesiology study from when I was young and worked out.

The Ectomorph
This individual has trouble gaining weight and muscle growth takes much longer to achieve and is harder to maintain. The ectomorph is very lean with little body fat and usually very little muscle mass.

The Mesomorph
This individual has little trouble gaining or losing weight and possesses the ability to rapidly pack on muscle mass. These are the "body beautiful" types that have little problem with being under or overweight. These individuals can usually eat whatever they want and miss workouts with almost no visible affect. This gift of genetics allows for a widely varied diet and diversity in training. These individuals are able to train heavy to build mass and definition at almost the same time.

Hmmmmm,

you can't grow more then a few pounds of muscle a year when off steroids, steroids and hgh give you 20 pounds of solid muscle just on one cylce alone

Oh really?

The Endomorph
This individual has trouble losing weight but usually gains muscle rather easily. These individuals tend to be heavy with a high percentage of both body fat and muscle. Persons such as football linemen or extremely obese individuals would be example of those who would fall into this category. Diet and exercise both are of utmost importance to those of this body type.

I unfortunately was this type. I had to work out a bunch to stay somewhat thin-ish. But as to why some of these ball players get the way they get as to muscle, size and so forth. Well, gee...

Proof or move on.

[/end rant]

 

[falconguard]

Proof under the current testing system, will only catch the extremely stupid or arrogant ones, as there is no profile for random off season testing. If you really want to see baseball turn on itself, initiate random testing during the off season, something the players union vigorously opposes.

The players union has been just as guilty as baseball in general in turning a blind eye to everything that has been going on, when you start to see people die prematurely ala Ken Caminiti, then you will have the proof you need.

Why is Steroids even a question? Are they not banned under most circumstances on a federal level? So anybody who has been using this is guilty of violating federal laws of obtaining drugs without a prescription. So we are defending baseball because their is no proof? Mark Mcgwire answered most questions, by not answering one. The National Past it's time, will slowly fade to WWE status, when they lose heroes to 'roids.

 

[madmatt]

Baseball will never fade. And WWE is still going strong, very strong according to the numbers.

All sports have this problem. Football, basketball, college, etc. Even high school sports.

 

[gonaads]

The players union has been just as guilty as baseball in general in turning a blind eye to everything that has been going on, when you start to see people die prematurely ala Ken Caminiti, then you will have the proof you need.

Hmmm, interesting that you bring him up.

On November 1,2004 the New York City Medical Examiners Office announced that Caminiti died from "acute intoxication due to the combined effects of cocaine and opiates," but coronary artery disease and cardiac hypertrophy (an enlarged heart) were also contributing factors.

Not the use of steroids. Yes he did use them but that was never said to be a contributing factor. So again, where's the proof.

Yes early in his career, he admitted to abusing alcohol and painkillers plus cocaine. Now that is a different animal all to itself. So many people abuse alcohol, pain killers and the such.

 

[Sazar]

Baseball will never fade. And WWE is still going strong, very strong according to the numbers.

All sports have this problem. Football, basketball, college, etc. Even high school sports.

Yah, you know things are bad when Darts, Chess and Curling players start juicing

 

[falconguard]

Hmmm, interesting that you bring him up.



Not the use of steroids. Yes he did use them but that was never said to be a contributing factor. So again, where's the proof.

Yes early in his career, he admitted to abusing alcohol and painkillers plus cocaine. Now that is a different animal all to itself. So many people abuse alcohol, pain killers and the such.

http://sportsmedicine.adisonline.co...1S3pyXQpGkFvYz7!-1036009586!181195628!8091!-1

Hypertrophy of the heart is proof, what essentially happens is the heart enlarges during the steroid cycle, when the steroids are discontinued the heart muscle weakens becuase it no longer has the mass behind it to drive the bigger muscle. So you have a large inefficient heart, nee remember Dean Steinkuhler from Nebraska. He admitted to steroid use in the NFL 30 years ago. He died from complications of Heart problems related to Hypertrohy and Cardiovascular disease.

When you see a lot of these players start dying from heart related problems in their late 40 or ealry 50's what more proof do you need? The NFL already contributed their studies...I guess baseball is a different animal when it come to Steroids, right?

 

[gonaads]

Hypertrophy, or thickening, of the heart muscle occurs in response to increased stress on the heart. It typically involves one of the bottom chambers of the heart, which are known as the ventricles. The right ventricle pumps blood to the lungs and the left ventricle pumps blood to the body. The most common causes of hypertrophy are related to increased blood pressure in either the lungs or the body. The extra work of pumping blood against the increased pressure causes the ventricle to thicken over time, the same way a body muscle increases in mass in response to weightlifting.

High blood pressure, or hypertension, is the most frequent cause of left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). Stenosis of the aortic valve – a condition in which, for a variety of reasons, this heart valve cannot open fully – is another common cause of LVH. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (a disease previously known as idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis or IHSS), and the ongoing use of cocaine round out the list of most common causes of LVH. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a genetic disease related to weakness of the individual muscle fibers of the heart. These fibers need to work harder to pump blood and become thickened over time. Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy occurs in 1 in 500 people and is the most common cardiac cause of sudden death in young athletes.

The most common causes of right ventricle hypertrophy (RVH) are diseases that damage the lung like emphysema and cystic fibrosis. These diseases destroy blood vessels in the lung, causing increased pressure in the remaining vessels. Conditions that decrease oxygen levels, such as chronic bronchitis and sleep apnea, also lead to RVH. Stenosis of the pulmonic heart valve, repeated blood clots to the lungs (chronic pulmonary embolism), and primary pulmonary hypertension are a few of the remaining causes of RVH.

With the exception of exercise-induced enlargement, all forms of cardiac enlargement are abnormal and associated with further problems, including heart failure, irregular heart rhythms , and an increased risk of angina and heart attack. Heart failure results because thickened or dilated heart muscle cannot function effectively as a pump. The diseased muscle cells in both types of enlargement are also capable of causing irregular heart rhythms that can lead to passing-out or sudden death. Because the processes which cause hypertrophy typically do not increase the amount of heart blood vessels to match the thickened heart muscle, the consequences of decreased blood flow to the heart, angina and heart attack, are more common. All of this contributes to an increased risk of death and decreased quality of life for most of those with cardiac enlargement. Treatments are available to help most of these problems.

But since you are putting steroids and the enlarged heart in the same equation, read this:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/koert/anabolic-steroids-gh-and-the-heart.htm

Steroids don’t damage the heart, the researchers found. But the combination of steroids and growth hormone does.

Ken Caminiti said he was using steroids not growth hormones nor a combination of the two. Well he was drinking a lot and cocaine (which will stop your heart dead).

But this is an argument for the ages and it will go back and forth forever.

 

[falconguard]

Heh!

Of course a study with twenty users is not conclusive. But the study suggests that....

and oh yeah

all forms of cardiac enlargement are abnormal and associated with further problems,

 

[gonaads]

Yeah but all twenty were on steroids. And yes lots of other factors. So let's all say it's one thing and one thing only and be narrow minded to anything else. Hmmm kinda sounds like when they were burning witches. No other explanation but that they are all witches. But what if... ooooh so you are a witch also. Burn 'em! I will keep an open mind to all of this until there is proof otherwise. Hell a murderer and a rapist have more rights that all these ball players. Innocent 'till proven guilty. But when it comes to our sports they are all guilty when any accusation is brought up. Evidence or proof? We don't need no stinking proof. Public opinion is all the proof we need. Burn 'em!

Many times you are guilty by association.

As I said before this will never end. Well until they find something better/worse.


I'm done.

 

[madmatt]

757.