Big Brother will be watching?

Discussion in 'Windows Desktop Systems' started by Lukas, Sep 17, 2002.

  1. Lukas

    Lukas Real Name No Gimmicks

    Messages:
    421
    Hey all,

    Just read about the new Windows XP Media center pc's and the new Intel chips with anti-software-or-media-piracy thingies built into them.

    Ok, how far will this go? In media center you would be able to record a tv show to a dvd, but you can only play it back on the very same workstation... Now, umm, ok, so let's throw the brand new home cinema set out, becouse MS will play it back for me on my 17"... I have a tv-out on my GForce but my home cinema has surround and stuff.... plus I have a remote that don't need to buy seperatly (I don't think the remote will be in Media Center Edition's software box)... Not to mention the car entertaiment systems... You could burn TV shows on DVD's and view 'em in your car (think bout the kids) - well, you won't be able to. And I don't feel like hooking up my desktop to Video In connector on my future car's DVD player.

    In some time you'll try to rip a cd you bought (for the sake of argument) and you processor will tell you that you aren't allowed to??? F*** that, that s*x... How about making compilation disks for your car? Or your discman? Or ripping mp3's for your portable mp3 player? Or ...

    I wish the big a$$ companies would stop telling me how to use MY computer...

    [Intel/AMD Digital Processor Security - START]
    user thinks Microsoft is good - user loves Microsoft - user loves Intel - this text has been edited by the advanced security module of your processor - please refer to the EULA for details
    [Intel/AMD Digital Processor Security - STOP]



    Anyways, I'm getting a real spooky Big Brother is Watching Me feeling....

    Just my two cents...



    Greetz


    Lukas
     
  2. Electronic Punk

    Electronic Punk Administrator Staff Member Political User Folding Team

    Messages:
    18,590
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    All big brother can do is watch tho... don't think it will stand up in court yet.. The big perv.
     
  3. PseudoKiller

    PseudoKiller Zug Zug

    Messages:
    3,858
    Location:
    Ice Crown Citadel
    If you fear BB now wait till Longhorn comes out.... It will make today spying, childs play. :D
    Linux can b your friend... :D
     
  4. Lukas

    Lukas Real Name No Gimmicks

    Messages:
    421
    found this on Winamp.Com Link is here



    This taken from various sources encluding UHA and deviantart, the register and slashdot., Disturbing news..

    Earlier this week, Microsoft outlined their plans for their next generation of operting systems, codenamed Longhorn/Palladium. Among the features touted was the "secure networking" functions that OS would offer.

    Firstly:
    Microsoft plans to implement Palladium DRM (digital rights management) in a hardware chip, initially implanted on the mobo, but later on embedded in the CPU, and employing hardwired encryption throughout. The purpose of this is to flag every file on the computer with a digital signature telling a remote server what it is. If it's an unauthorised file, the remote server will tell your computer not to let you execute it.

    This is basically an attempt to stop the trading of mp3's and/or warez.

    Secondly:
    Before an application can run, it too must have a digital signature remotely verified by another server. If the program binary doesn't match with any of the authenticated binaries, your computer won't run it. This, again, is meant to stop your computer running "unauthorised" software - which might be warez, or it might just be a nifty freewrae program that the authors acn't afford to have certified. Microsoft will be able to control exactly what your computer can and can't run.

    Thirdly:
    As most of you know, Microsoft employ a strategy of making their software deliberately obsolete - they make it forwrd compatible, but not backward compatible. With the laws of the DMCA, it will soon be illegal to try to make a software product that is compatible with another programs file types (for example, take the many office applications there are for Linux which have had some success in translating their arcane file formats).
    This has the effect of killing any competition in the water - since you're not allowed to make your new product compatible with any of the others, no-one will use it. And eventually people will give up using any of the others instead, since no-one else can read their documents. So the entire world will be left with one choice only for software - Microsoft.

    Fourthly (I don't know if that's a word, but it should be):
    Palladium will effectively ban free software, not just free stuff for Windows platforms, but free stuff for Linux, Mac, in fact every OS that runs on a Palladium enabled motherboard/processor. Why?
    In order to get the program to run on a palladium platform, you will need to pay to have your binary certified as "safe" by Microsoft's software authentification branch. And who in their right mind is going to pay for a piece of software they spent hours working on? It just wouldn't be worth it.

    It gets worse when it comes to open source projects, such as Linux and BSD. Those of you who know about these things will know that open source projects are created by freelance coders all over the world who create programs in their spare time and then give them to the rest of the world for free. Many of them also release the source code for free too, so that if you wish you can alter the program (such as to fix bugs, add features etc).
    Now, it would be bad enough if the owner has to pay a certification fee. But EVERY CHANGE that is made to the source code will require a new, seperate certificate to be created. Those of you who use Linux will know that so many things get updated so quickly, that this just isn't practical, and would cost the open source developement people millions of dollars. This is money they just don't have, and Microsoft knows it.

    Fifthly:
    The "secure network". This is the real clincher for Palladium. At first, they're going to make it so that it is possible to turn Palladium off at the hardware level. But it is created in such a way so that, if you try to connect to a Palladium web server, you won't be allowed to. Palladium machines will only be able to talk to other Palladium machines, and non-Palladium machines won't be able to talk to any Palladium machines.
    Hence, if Palladium reaches critical mass, there will be thousands of people the world over who won't be able to access the internet or even work on a network with Palladium machines, so by extension they will be forced to "upgrade" to Palladium machines.

    Sixthly:
    At first I thought: what the hell, this is only going to apply to x86 architecture (namely Athlon and Pentium chips, since it's only AMD and Intel who are involved at the moment). So, I could try another hardware architecture: such as the Mac/PPC, or the Sun Sparc, or an ARM, or any other kind of processor.
    But then I realside that even if I did, I wouldn't be able to access the "Palladium network" which could encompass the entire internet if this concept goes far enough. So all you Mac users would be effectively locked out; you too would have adopt a Palladium machine if you wanted your computer to actually do anything.

    Seventhly:
    Palladium will enable all your documents to be controlled remotely. No, this is not a joke. If Microsoft find you are using an outdated version of Office, all they need to do is send a message to your computer and it will no longer let you read any of your documents that were created with that application.
    Even more sinister is that if Microsoft take offence at any of the documents on your machine (this could be porn, it could be a simple document containing DeCSS information or anti-Palladium information) then they can delete or alter it not just from your PC but from every other Palladium PC on the network.
    This has a remarkable similarity to the "Ministry of Truth" in George Orwell's "1984" where the government continually faked information, both new and old, the entire country over to make themsleves appear "correct" all the time.


    If Palladium ever becomes widespread enough, the internet as we know it today will be dead. Instead of being controlled by us, it will be controlled by Microsoft, and you will have no choice to do exectly what they say.

    Hence why I want to tell as many people about this atrocious idea before it become spopular, and M$ administer their miraculous spin to it to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread.


    Darn, I forgot to post the links explaining about it. I'll also put up a few emails from some mailing lists me and my friends are members of.

    Initial outline of Palladium [link]

    Analysis on how Palladium is solely designed to protect IT businesses such as Microsoft [link]

    The Palladium FAQ [link]

    How Palladium has the potential to eradicate Linux [link]

    ======================================

    The following is an excerpt from an email by "Lucky Green" one of the worlds most renowned cryptography hackers:

    [Minor plug: I am scheduled to give a talk on TCPA at this year's DEF CON security conference. I promise it will be an interesting talk. [link] ]

    Below are two more additional TCPA plays that I am in a position to mention:

    1) Permanently lock out competitors from your file formats.

    - From Steven Levy's article:
    "A more interesting possibility is that Palladium could help introduce DRM to business and just plain people. It's a funny thing," says Bill Gates. "We came at this thinking about music, but then we realized that e-mail and documents were far more interesting domains."

    Here it is why it is a more interesting possibility to Microsoft for Palladium to help introduce DRM to business and "just plain people" than to solely utilize DRM to prevent copying of digital entertainment content:

    It is true that Microsoft, Intel, and other key TCPA members consider DRM an enabler of the PC as the hub of the future home entertainment network. As Ross pointed out, by adding DRM to the platform, Microsoft
    and Intel, are able to grow the market for the platform.

    However, this alone does little to enhance Microsoft's already sizable existing core business. As Bill Gates stated, Microsoft plans to wrap their entire set of file formats with DRM. How does this help Microsoft's core business? Very simple: enabling DRM for MS Word
    documents makes it illegal under the DMCA to create competing software that can read or otherwise process the application's file format without the application vendor's permission.

    Future maintainers of open source office suites will be faced with a very simple choice: don't enable the software to read Microsoft's file formats or go to jail. Anyone who doubts that such a thing could happen
    is encouraged to familiarize themselves with the case of Dmitry Skylarov, who was arrested after last year's DEF CON conference for creating software that permitted processing of a DRM- wrapped document
    file format.

    Permanently locking out competition is a feature that of course does not just appeal to Microsoft alone. A great many dominant application vendors are looking forward to locking out their competition. The beauty of this play is that the application vendors themselves never need to make that call to the FBI themselves and incur the resultant backlash from the public that Adobe experienced in the Skylarov case. The content
    providers or some of those utilizing the ubiquitously supported DRM features will eagerly make that call instead.

    In one fell swoop, application vendors, such as Microsoft and many others, create a situation in which the full force of the U.S. judicial system can be brought to bear on anyone attempting to compete with a
    dominant application vendor. This is one of the several ways in which TCPA enables stifling competition.

    The above is one of the near to medium objectives the TCPA helps meet. [The short-term core application objective is of course to ensure payment for any and all copies of your application out there]. Below is a mid to long term objective:

    2) Lock documents to application licensing

    As the Levy article mentions, Palladium will permit the creation of documents with a given lifetime. This feature by necessity requires a secure clock, not just at the desktop of the creator of the document, but also on the desktops of all parties that might in the future read
    such documents. Since PC's do not ship with secure clocks that the owner of the PC is unable to alter and since the TCPA's specs do not mandate such an expensive hardware solution, any implementation of limited lifetime documents must by necessity obtain the time elsewhere. The obvious source for secure time is a TPM authenticated time server that distributes the time over the Internet.

    In other words, Palladium and other TCPA-based applications will require at least occasional Internet access to operate. It is during such mandatory Internet access that licensing-related information will be pushed to the desktop. One such set of information would be blacklists of widely-distributed pirated copies of application software (you don't need TCPA for this feature if the user downloads and installs periodic software updates, but the user may choose to live with
    application bugs that are fixed in the update rather than see her unpaid software disabled).

    With TCPA and DRM on all documents, the application vendor's powers increase vastly: the application vendor can now not just invalidate copies of applications for failure to pay ongoing licensing fees, but can invalidate all documents that were ever created with the help of
    this application. Regardless how widely the documents may have been distributed or on who's computer the documents may reside at present.

    Furthermore, this feature enables world-wide remote invalidation of a document file for reasons other than failure to pay ongoing licensing fees to the application vendor. To give just one example, documents can
    be remotely invalidated pursuant to a court order, as might be given if the author of the document were to distribute DeCSS v3 or Scientology scriptures in the future DRM protected format. All that is required to
    perform such an administrative invalidation of a document is either a sample copy of the document from which one can obtain its globally unique ID, the serial number of the application that created the document, or the public key of the person who licensed the application. (Other ways to exist but are omitted in the interest of brevity).
     
  5. Electronic Punk

    Electronic Punk Administrator Staff Member Political User Folding Team

    Messages:
    18,590
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Yes, but for such an immense project, would it have to have a ROM incase of any required updates... if so it can be hacked just like you were updating a DVDROM firmware.
     
  6. AcftMecH

    AcftMecH OSNN Addict

    Messages:
    99
    Hut Hut... you said "hacked"....LOL
     
  7. What are you guys snoking!

    I have 1 word for you. PARANOIA

    Whoever beleives all of this crap, probably beleives that BIG BROTHER is watching you through your cable box, and satellites are reading your license plates whenever you go out to dinner so the waiters can get your DNA from the saliva you left on that chicken bone. Get real.:rolleyes:
     
  8. NetRyder

    NetRyder Tech Junkie Folding Team

    Messages:
    13,256
    Location:
    New York City
    Re: What are you guys snoking!

    LOL :D
     
  9. Lukas

    Lukas Real Name No Gimmicks

    Messages:
    421
    Well, I agree the quoted text is a little bit 'out there' but the thingies in Longhorn I don't like. And that's not paranoid.


    Greetz

    Lukas
     
  10. egghead

    egghead Double O Egghead

    Messages:
    504
    nice post lukas:

    you have seen the future as it is.
    this unfortunatly is something that must be done to protect the music, movie, and software companies from dying

    the only other solution is to create a new set-top box to connect to the internet that has all the drm services in place and one that cannot be comprimised

    if you could hook a computer to it; it will be compromised
    so the best way is to use a high performance onboard chip to create code that cannot be comprimised as it can be updated with your subscription

    this will give all software companies piece of mind and will allow them to give you free full working trials of the software free from buggy copyright counter measures
    this would allow you to create the greatest product in the world from your home and allow you to get paid and still be in your home in alaska with zero pirated software losses

    this can only happen when the internet protocal gets updated and accepted by the majority

    patented offices will examine digital code against already working models to determine if digital keys will be givin to the maker for release and use over the www

    however i dont know if microsoft or the goverment should have control over the www

    every piece of news has its own digital signal and could be sniffed out of everyones computer and altered and slipped back and you wouldnt know it
    this creates the real "dont believe everything you read twice" theory

    i dont like the changes upcomming but i can live without an upgrade because my computer works fine without internet

    and i could always get web tv

    but when the hardware comes out
    i will not stand in line
    i think they should leave our computers alone and use thier own settop boxes and protocals
    but digital is digital and the only cure is to morph the computer into thier settop boxes



    i wont use one
    untill i get a career ;)

    lol!

    cheers

    egghead


    sorry for the long post
    i felt like babbling
     
  11. stuy_b

    stuy_b Guest

    Christ you guys r paranoid!!.. :rolleyes:
     
  12. dave holbon

    dave holbon Moderator

    Messages:
    1,014
    Location:
    London England
    I have in my right hand a programmable DRM hardware encoder/blocker that spends its whole life lying. It fits into the original BIOS chip socket and then you plug your BIOS into it (piggy-back).

    And in my left hand a DRM blocker/scrambler/ Palladium code generator that’s a retrofit into the CPU socket (all formats available) for any AMD/INTEL CPU past or present.

    Well not really…. but the moment the designs of these chips are patented someone will have these on the market before the technologies are implemented on motherboards or CPU’s. The market for these will be even bigger than the enabling technology.

    It’s all happened before.
    :) :) :) :) :)
     
  13. egghead

    egghead Double O Egghead

    Messages:
    504
    thats the whole point of this new technology

    it has to be hardware because software is to easily bypassed

    i know someone will find a way around this but the reason for this is to stop everyone from downloading copyright material and to make it difficult to obtain the fix

    if it was the bios chip you mentioned
    it would take 2 weeks to order it then you would have to find someone to solder it for you etc....
    you get the picture.

    kids would have to stop downloading music and be forced to learn about technology

    which is a good thing

    the idea is to make it harder for everyone


    kinda like satellite tv

    its free somewhere but its hard to find and hard to learn and that littlebit off discouragement is sometimes the cure...
    for now

    i dont support any theory for drm or riaa and all the others
    but windows media 9 has some serious problems with getting access to the internet everytime i play a video on my harddrive and i dont like that
    also the end-user license agreement has changed to allow m$ full control to monitor and upgrade your xp in compliance to drm and it states that some programs may cease to function

    i know my new version of clonecd messed up for the first time ever

    but its just a coincidence and i think is the sign of the times

    cheers
    egghead
     
  14. chastity

    chastity Moderator Political User

    Messages:
    2,273
    Location:
    Arizona near the Grand Canyon
    Well I think that everybody needs to learn more bout technogoly but I'm also not likening the idea that M$ or anybody else for that matter what I can and can't do with my computer.
     
  15. egghead

    egghead Double O Egghead

    Messages:
    504
    i know that my computer is powerful enough to record mypro studio audio
    it can also record my favorite tv shows

    it can play great games
    and control the kitchen sink
    i wont try apple or linux
    i think i will sit back and play with my computer because it does what i want

    i will let the big business sort out the restricted pc's and annual os subscriptions m$ has planned
    no wonder gates is investing in drug companies

    we're guaranteed to pay for that subscription ;)
     
  16. ssj4conejo

    ssj4conejo Guest

    This is a very interesting post, Well remember this one phrase for the REST of your LIFE... "ANYTHING DIGITAL CAN BE CRACKED" if people could coppy floppies in the 80s and 90s, if we can burn cds now, if people can crack XP and find ways around it, what makes you think we cannot Defeat Palladium, Power to THe PEOPLe, ALL EVIL SHALL BE EXTERMINATED
     
  17. egghead

    egghead Double O Egghead

    Messages:
    504
    everything can be cracked
    but this is a super monitoring device
    tracking your every mouse click to see if your authorized to schite
    that is creepy
    like the bottom of the world wide web

    i dont want to be controlled by fear
    i'd rather walk away and get married
     
  18. Nick M

    Nick M Moderator

    Messages:
    3,961
    New processors that spy on you? Copyright stuff... eh :::sigh:::
    AMD shouldn't make anything like this, but if they intergrate that stuff into Windows... that would suck. Remember, Linux will always be there for us...