About the HD 2x00 cards...

[Aprox]

I have found that a lot of issues that people complain about in the forums (HardOCP, Guru3d, nvnews) are self induced. It seems that a lot of people with older generation hardware (G7 and older) like to install drivers that are for the 8 series cards and are surprised when things don't work right. So I think that creates a lot of extra "noise" in the forums then there should actually be. Not to say that 8 series users don't have problems, but its not as bad as it seems imo.

It should be avoidable too, since Nvidia is supposed to have a Unified Driver Architecture but since the introduction of the 8 series cards they have been really bad about this. Not to mention driver version numbers.... just because a driver has a higher number does mean its newer than another set with a lower release number. Makes things confusing, and more likely for problems to pop up.

 

[Sazar]

My take is this.

Why have one take for problems involving Nvidia cards and then suggest that AMD cards are inferior?

Like I said, there is no doubt the G80's are the faster product right now but at the price point, you are not losing with the r600.

Performance is more than adequate and that was the OP's initial request, I thought, for more information and opinions on the performance. Not how much faster the Ultra and GTX may be.

 

[Aprox]

Why have one take for problems involving Nvidia cards and then suggest that AMD cards are inferior?

I feel this way because they are not on the same level, Nvidia has issues... but they are not nearly as bad as the issues that ATI has currently. ATI's problems are magnitudes larger than Nvidia's, so its not a black and white comparison. No company has perfect drivers, so you cant just lump them all together as being equally bad. Either it be dramatically higher power consumption, and equally higher heat generation, these problems the 8 series do not suffer from, nor did they ever, No driver is going to fix that.

 

[Sazar]

I feel this way because they are not on the same level, Nvidia has issues... but they are not nearly as bad as the issues that ATI has currently. ATI's problems are magnitudes larger than Nvidia's, so its not a black and white comparison. No company has perfect drivers, so you cant just lump them all together as being equally bad. Either it be dramatically higher power consumption, and equally higher heat generation, these problems the 8 series do not suffer from, nor did they ever, No driver is going to fix that.

I'm sorry to hijack the thread but Aprox, WHAT PROBLEMS?



What problems are you talking about?

I have yet to hear of complaints from users of the card, even users who have gone from an 8800 series card to the 2900 (their choice) and they like the card they have.

I haven't heard them complain of system instability or system heat issues because of the cards. The fans are louder, that is about the only general consensus.

 

[Aprox]

You don't consider 100watts of extra power consumption for roughly the same performance a problem? Or 10 - 20 degrees c higher load temps, which lead to everything running hotter and a warmer room a problem? Significant AA performance issues, which is ridiculous in modern hardware isn't a problem? I'm not in the ATI community enough to read specifics on game to game or OS problems so I wont make assumptions there.

 

[LordOfLA]

Aprox. My 2900XT is cooler than my 1950XTX was.

I don't have AA issues. I use AA regularly in City of Heroes/Villains and Neverwinter nights 2.

If TDU wasn't crashing at start now I'd be using AA in that without issue.

The drivers are making the 2900XT one very fast card. It has demonstrated consitently higher min-framerates than the nvidia hardware. Since most people have LCD's these days this is where the numbers count, unless you have an LCD that can draw 400 frames per second.

It is a very fast, very powerful, very stable card. Which I could not say about my 7800GTX at any point in its lifetime.

 

[Sazar]

You don't consider 100watts of extra power consumption for roughly the same performance a problem? Or 10 - 20 degrees c higher load temps, which lead to everything running hotter and a warmer room a problem? Significant AA performance issues, which is ridiculous in modern hardware isn't a problem? I'm not in the ATI community enough to read specifics on game to game or OS problems so I wont make assumptions there.

You are making a lot of assumption Aprox and the reason I am saying you are is because there are many, very detailed, user reviews out there on forums such as nvnews. There, the users have specifically benched their games and posted results and screenshots and it allows comparison with other systems. Also, screens have been posted of system temps and so forth. I haven't seen a single user complain about their system temps increasing 10-20C. I haven't seen an increase of even 10-20F.

And, as Lord points out, the AA performance issues are subjective I guess. I haven't seen users complain about gigantic losses of performance although, to be fair, there is a bigger hit than on the g80 cards in most situations.

Also, yes, I don't consider an extra 100W usage high because it's not really that much higher in real life usage. I didn't hear people complain when they moved to the g80 series which had higher consumption than the previous gen. I also didn't hear people complain about the gargantuan size of the product either.

 

[Steevo]

I would have a HD2900XT but the extra power requirement and DRM that I feel is BS

 

[Tuffgong4]

I love both sides offerings, each has it's pluses and minuses, but right now where the real battle is won in the mid range and neither company has done anything impressive. Also there aren't any native dx10 games. All right now are just patches or addons. Let's wait to see what happens with those games because really all we can go on is dx9 right now which runs well on both nvidia and ati cards.

Both cards have their issues and siding with one is really nonsensical. find the best bang for your buck and be happy because you are getting great performance because of the previous competition.

On a side note the only place that is one sided is the upper upper high range, but the ridiculous prices of the 8800 ultra almost make it moot, even though prices are coming down.

 

[zapoqx]

sorry this is late to reply here but... wait... DRM... the Digital Rights Management...
The better question then to ask would be would it try to check for the DRM on things like... say I download a TV Show like an anime show, would it affect that?

 

[Sazar]

Too many people whine about DRM

It's not really a bad thing per se and if people are upset about it with a video card, they will likely also be upset at having to use a compliant display, player and all that jazz.

Honestly, it's not even an issue right now and shouldn't be down the road.

 

[Steevo]

I am, I won't, and DRM will die when they either realise that only a few peeps who aren't doing anything anyway are buying this crap, or they still find ways around it. It is a issue when I buy music with DRM from MS Music, then they discontinue the service, how long before the files are no longer supported.

And here I thought for sure I was buying from MS, a large company that would always be around in the media business.

I fear buying a HD-DVD as much as a Blu-ray due to the fact that one day, the pendulum will swing, and alot of people will be angry about being screwed over. And I would be one of them, so I wait.

 

[LordOfLA]

Multi-format disc player. Easy.

 

[Sazar]

Multi-format disc player. Easy.

/me claps

 

[zapoqx]

So DRM shouldn't affect me unless I put in newer DVD's, HD-DVD's, or Blue-ray?

 

[Steevo]

You mean that you get the clap from the companies whoreing around and you get a overpriced multi-disc player.




Sorry, I will wait till it ends before I make my move.

 

[Sazar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

It's easier to understand with some background and seeing where it is currently involved in day to day affairs.

 

[Sazar]

You mean that you get the clap from the companies whoreing around and you get a overpriced multi-disc player.

Sorry, I will wait till it ends before I make my move.

Your call.

What Lord said is the route I am going.

 

[Steevo]

Musicload stated that three out of every four calls to their customer support phone service are as a result of consumer frustration with DRM.

Many online music stores employ DRM to restrict usage of music purchased and downloaded online. There are many options for consumers buying digital music over the internet, in terms of both stores and purchase options. Two examples of music stores and their functionality follow:

• The iTunes Store, run by Apple Inc., allows users to purchase a track online for $.99 US. The tracks purchased use Apple's FairPlay DRM system. However, with the use of iTunes Plus, users can download DRM free music for an extra 30 cents.[7]

• Napster music store, which offers a subscription-based approach to DRM alongside permanent purchases. Users of the subscription service can download and stream an unlimited amount of music encoded to Windows Media Audio (WMA) while subscribed to the service. But as soon as the user misses a payment, the service renders all of the downloaded music unusable. Napster also charges users who wish to use the music on their portable device an additional $5 per month. Furthermore, Napster requires users to pay an additional $0.99 per track to burn it to CD or listen to it after the subscription expires. Songs bought through Napster can be played on players carrying the Microsoft PlaysForSure logo (which, notably, do not include iPods or even Microsoft's own Zune).

• Wal-Mart Music Downloads, another online music download store, also uses DRM. It charges $0.88 per track for all non-sale downloads. All Wal-Mart Music Downloads are able to be played on any Windows PlaysForSure marked product. However, this music will not play on the Zune. The music does play on the SanDisk's Sansa mp3 player, for example, but must be copied to the player's internal memory. It can not be played through the player's Micro SD card slot, which is a problem that many users of the mp3 player experience.

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is an extension to United States copyright law passed unanimously on May 14, 1998, which criminalizes the production and dissemination of technology that allows users to circumvent technical copy-restriction methods. Under the Act, circumvention of a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work is illegal if done with the primary intent of violating the rights of copyright holders.

Open-source software to decrypt content scrambled with the Content Scrambling System and other encryption techniques presents an intractable problem with the application of the Act.


All aimed at us, the consumer, made and enforced to make more money, large companies lobbying the goverment for favors, demanding more from joe consumer, forcing their products that they want you to buy, and only theirs on you, any other product is a violation of their rights.


Remember tapes? They would play on ANY player, quality or crap. Who here uses anything but a ipod or other forced hardware crap? My point exactly.